I know it's MJ's day, but...

[houheffna]

Mark it's not about Stockton being the best player on his team, and the debate wasn't winning a championship with Stockton as your best player. It's that Stockton was the best PG. When it came to passing the rock, running the offense, hitting the clutch shot, & playing lock down D, there wasn't anyone better than Stockton at the position. The guy only missed 22 games in 19 seasons, talk about stability at the PG position. And he was much more physically limited than all the other players people have mentioned, there's something to be said about that. He's probably the smartest player I have ever watched play the game. He led the league in assists 9 seasons in a row. 9! 1 of only 3 players in NBA history to record 1,000 assists in a single season. As Po3 said, 5 of 6 highest Apg totals for a season, including the highest ever at 14.5.

You can't honestly look at those Jazz teams & say that the talent was anywhere near what Magic had with the Lakers. I watched those Jazz teams, & other than Jeff Malone, there was no one else but Stockton & Malone. Magic had Kareem, Michael Cooper, James Worthy, Jammal Wilkes, Bob McAdoo, Byron Scott, all that talent was 100x's better than any of the mid 80's to early 90's Jazz teams. It was Stockton & Malone for the majority of their careers & not until the mid 90's did the Jazz finally get some decent talent around those 2. I'm not saying Magic wasn't great, because he was, but saying that Stockton had pretty good teams is a bit off.

Yes, he never won a championship, but so have alot of great players, but he just happened to play in the era of Jordan, like many others, & that prevented him from achieving the ultimate goal. The Jazz have the distinct honor of having the best PG of all time & the best PF of all time, but still no championships because they played against the GOAT, with one of best SF's of all time, coached by probably the greatest coach of all time.

But if I'm picking an all-time greats team, Stockton is my starting PG every time

Anybody that looks at Magic and Stockton and says they would take Stockton...I am putting you in a sleeper hold. Magic is top 10 player ALLTIME!!! 5 championships, 3 MVPS...that is a no brainer...

What you fail to realize about Magic is he played with an older Kareem for a lot of those years, whose MVP level seasons were in the past. Magic was the best player on those teams, point blank. He was the best player on some of the greatest teams in NBA history. And Magic was just as clutch, more clutch as a matter of fact. Payton played lock down D, Stockton wasn't THAT good. He was a great player, but Payton used to whup his ass pretty good if I remember right...

 

[Diddy1122]

houheffna wrote:

Anybody that looks at Magic and Stockton and says they would take Stockton...I am putting you in a sleeper hold. Magic is top 10 player ALLTIME!!! 5 championships, 3 MVPS...that is a no brainer...

What you fail to realize about Magic is he played with an older Kareem for a lot of those years, whose MVP level seasons were in the past. Magic was the best player on those teams, point blank. He was the best player on some of the greatest teams in NBA history. And Magic was just as clutch, more clutch as a matter of fact. Payton played lock down D, Stockton wasn't THAT good. He was a great player, but Payton used to whup his ass pretty good if I remember right...

That older Kareem still lead the team in scoring & rebounds almost every season until the 87-88 season, don't act like he was some ineffective washed-up former MVP. He was still one of the best Centers in the game. And I'm not saying Stockton was a better all around player than Magic, never said that. But as a PG I feel Stockton was better, just my opinion.

And you'd never get me in a sleeper hold. Jr Black Belt in Kung Fu bee-ATCH! :cheer:

 

[TheStig]

Diddy1122 wrote:

houheffna wrote:

Anybody that looks at Magic and Stockton and says they would take Stockton...I am putting you in a sleeper hold. Magic is top 10 player ALLTIME!!! 5 championships, 3 MVPS...that is a no brainer...

What you fail to realize about Magic is he played with an older Kareem for a lot of those years, whose MVP level seasons were in the past. Magic was the best player on those teams, point blank. He was the best player on some of the greatest teams in NBA history. And Magic was just as clutch, more clutch as a matter of fact. Payton played lock down D, Stockton wasn't THAT good. He was a great player, but Payton used to whup his ass pretty good if I remember right...

That older Kareem still lead the team in scoring & rebounds almost every season until the 87-88 season, don't act like he was some ineffective washed-up former MVP. He was still one of the best Centers in the game. And I'm not saying Stockton was a better all around player than Magic, never said that. But as a PG I feel Stockton was better, just my opinion.

And you'd never get me in a sleeper hold. Jr Black Belt in Kung Fu bee-ATCH! :cheer:

Point Guards typically don't normally lead teams in scoring. Was kidd not the best player on the first nets finals team or was it KVH or Kmart?

 

[engies]

houheffna wrote:

Mark it's not about Stockton being the best player on his team, and the debate wasn't winning a championship with Stockton as your best player. It's that Stockton was the best PG. When it came to passing the rock, running the offense, hitting the clutch shot, & playing lock down D, there wasn't anyone better than Stockton at the position. The guy only missed 22 games in 19 seasons, talk about stability at the PG position. And he was much more physically limited than all the other players people have mentioned, there's something to be said about that. He's probably the smartest player I have ever watched play the game. He led the league in assists 9 seasons in a row. 9! 1 of only 3 players in NBA history to record 1,000 assists in a single season. As Po3 said, 5 of 6 highest Apg totals for a season, including the highest ever at 14.5.

You can't honestly look at those Jazz teams & say that the talent was anywhere near what Magic had with the Lakers. I watched those Jazz teams, & other than Jeff Malone, there was no one else but Stockton & Malone. Magic had Kareem, Michael Cooper, James Worthy, Jammal Wilkes, Bob McAdoo, Byron Scott, all that talent was 100x's better than any of the mid 80's to early 90's Jazz teams. It was Stockton & Malone for the majority of their careers & not until the mid 90's did the Jazz finally get some decent talent around those 2. I'm not saying Magic wasn't great, because he was, but saying that Stockton had pretty good teams is a bit off.

Yes, he never won a championship, but so have alot of great players, but he just happened to play in the era of Jordan, like many others, & that prevented him from achieving the ultimate goal. The Jazz have the distinct honor of having the best PG of all time & the best PF of all time, but still no championships because they played against the GOAT, with one of best SF's of all time, coached by probably the greatest coach of all time.

But if I'm picking an all-time greats team, Stockton is my starting PG every time

Anybody that looks at Magic and Stockton and says they would take Stockton...I am putting you in a sleeper hold. Magic is top 10 player ALLTIME!!! 5 championships, 3 MVPS...that is a no brainer...

What you fail to realize about Magic is he played with an older Kareem for a lot of those years, whose MVP level seasons were in the past. Magic was the best player on those teams, point blank. He was the best player on some of the greatest teams in NBA history. And Magic was just as clutch, more clutch as a matter of fact. Payton played lock down D, Stockton wasn't THAT good. He was a great player, but Payton used to whup his ass pretty good if I remember right...

Don't get me wrong. If I wanted a star PG who could be a not only a great passer but a great scorer I'd choose Magic. But i think if you had a team with players like Jordan & Hakeem on it, I would choose Stockton because he fits better. He had a better outside shot and didnt need to score as much as Magic did thus more shots for your better players. Similar feelings I have for Pippen.

Magic probably is the best of all time at PG, but 2nd would be Stockton IMO. Maybe i need a refresher from someone as to who in the history of the league (other than magic) is better than Stockton

 

[brett05]

mlewinth wrote:
[quote}Jordan transcended the game, [/quote]
OK
[quote}he was an icon,[/quote}
ok
[quote}he was the best of the best. [/quote}

Someone needs microfiche. When they asked the Top 50 to put together a starting 5, Michael was not selected.

[quote}50 years from now, people will remember Michael Jordan, like they remember Babe Ruth. Could you tell me more than 1 or 2 players who even played in the same era as Ruth? [/quote}

Wait a moment. Seriously? Michael Jordan doesn't carry Ruth's jock when it comes to popularity, tanscending the game, etc. That takes nothing away from Michael, but to compare him to Babe Ruth? That's crazy talk. ANd the list of Ruth contemporaries are still known today....Ty Cobb, Lou Gehrig, Christy Mathewson, Hank Greenberg, Rogers Hornsby,etc, etc, etc...

 

[??? ??????]

brett05 wrote:

mlewinth wrote:
[quote}Jordan transcended the game,

OK
[quote}he was an icon,[/quote}
ok
[quote}he was the best of the best. [/quote}

Someone needs microfiche. When they asked the Top 50 to put together a starting 5, Michael was not selected.

[quote}50 years from now, people will remember Michael Jordan, like they remember Babe Ruth. Could you tell me more than 1 or 2 players who even played in the same era as Ruth? [/quote}

Wait a moment. Seriously? Michael Jordan doesn't carry Ruth's jock when it comes to popularity, tanscending the game, etc. That takes nothing away from Michael, but to compare him to Babe Ruth? That's crazy talk. ANd the list of Ruth contemporaries are still known today....Ty Cobb, Lou Gehrig, Christy Mathewson, Hank Greenberg, Rogers Hornsby,etc, etc, etc...[/quote]

Come on. Babe Ruth is not relevant to sports anymore. Outside of the obscure mention on sports center, seeing him a video game, having a homerun record being neared, or my seventh grade history of baseball class, Ruth doesn't get mentioned much at all.

I would say retired players such as Sammy Sosa, Mark McGwire, Jose Canseco, and Barry Bonds are more popular than Babe Ruth. (Well maybe popular is the wrong word...but more relevant, more talked about).

Michael Jordan still is the epitome of basketball. When people talk about great players in baseball, they aren't being measured against Babe Ruth. When people talk about great players in basketball, the Lebron's and Kobe's, they're being measured against Michael Jordan.

To further prove Mark's ooint, Ty Cobb, Lou Gehrig, and Roger Hornsby are the only three players you listed that I recognize the names about, and I honestly didn't know they played at the same time as Ruth.

I think people are going to remember Jordan's contemporaries. That is John Stockton, Karl Malone, Gary Payton, Charles Barkley, Magic Johnson, Clyde Drexler, Isiah Thomas, Bill Laimbeer, Craig Ehlo, etc....if only for the fact that they are all part of Jordan's story...and quite frankly, a lot more people care about Jordan's story than Babe Ruth's.

 

[houheffna]

Wait a moment. Seriously? Michael Jordan doesn't carry Ruth's jock when it comes to popularity, tanscending the game, etc. That takes nothing away from Michael, but to compare him to Babe Ruth? That's crazy talk. ANd the list of Ruth contemporaries are still known today....Ty Cobb, Lou Gehrig, Christy Mathewson, Hank Greenberg, Rogers Hornsby,etc, etc, etc...

This cannot be serious. Michael may not have been as dominant, but he was definently as popular. Especially on a global scale. As a matter of fact, Jordan's tenure in the NBA is the reason for the globalization of the sport. Not only Jordan, but I would put Ali and for a short period of time, Joe Louis up there with Ruth. They were all global icons, Jordan is very comparable to Babe Ruth, and his impact on the world marketplace should not be marginalized.