I think the cubs should make a run at Dan Haren this off season.

Flacco4Prez

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I'd rather go after that Japanese pitcher who has the potential to be a top of the rotation arm. In Haren you are getting a 4/5 guy at best. If we got a legit top of the rotation or even a 2/3 type our rotation would be comparative with some of the others in the division. Then use the top 5 draft pick to land a potential ace of the future and the rotation is ready to roll
 

dabynsky

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Ok but are Grimm, Villenuva and the various other guys competing for the #5 role really impact guys either? That's the thing, if Haren is what he was this season he's the same as those guys save for maybe Arrieta if he gets consistent. However, if he does rebound to what I have suggested he might be the best pitcher on the cubs. I get the argument your making but I'm not convinced a lot of these guys need to be on the major league roster.

But the issue is that it is that these guys are either on the major league roster or they are released or have to pass through waivers depending on the guys:
Jeff Samardzija
Travis Wood
Edwin Jackson
Jake Arrieta
Alberto Cabrera
Pedro Strop
James Russell
Carlos Villanueva
Blake Parker

In rereading AZ Phil's 40 man roster list it appears Rondon has a fourth option year, but Rafael Dolis does not. I am not including Dolis in my list, but the issue I am rasining is not competition between a guy being here in Chicago or in Iowa. The issue is that the Cubs can only carry so many guys in Chicago or not at all. So even if Cabrera's ceiling is only a fourth starter, I think he has the ceiling of a three with the results this year and his stuff but different argument. Do you risk losing a guy like that on the chance that a 33 year old starting pitcher refinds his stuff?
 

beckdawg

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But the issue is that it is that these guys are either on the major league roster or they are released or have to pass through waivers depending on the guys:
Jeff Samardzija
Travis Wood
Edwin Jackson
Jake Arrieta
Alberto Cabrera
Pedro Strop
James Russell
Carlos Villanueva
Blake Parker

In rereading AZ Phil's 40 man roster list it appears Rondon has a fourth option year, but Rafael Dolis does not. I am not including Dolis in my list, but the issue I am rasining is not competition between a guy being here in Chicago or in Iowa. The issue is that the Cubs can only carry so many guys in Chicago or not at all. So even if Cabrera's ceiling is only a fourth starter, I think he has the ceiling of a three with the results this year and his stuff but different argument. Do you risk losing a guy like that on the chance that a 33 year old starting pitcher refinds his stuff?

It's a fair point. But, we also don't know how the off season will shake out. There's been talks of trading Russell and Shark. Also, I'm wondering what role Villanueva is really serving if it comes down to a numbers crunch.
 

beckdawg

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I'd rather go after that Japanese pitcher who has the potential to be a top of the rotation arm. In Haren you are getting a 4/5 guy at best. If we got a legit top of the rotation or even a 2/3 type our rotation would be comparative with some of the others in the division. Then use the top 5 draft pick to land a potential ace of the future and the rotation is ready to roll

That's the thing, I'm suggesting the metrics point that Haren could be a 2/3 pitcher or at least the 3-4 WAR pitcher he has been in the past. Also, as I've outlined some where in this topic, Haren doesn't stop you from getting Tanaka.
 

CSF77

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http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/cubs/post/_/id/20153/2014-starting-staff-taking-shape-already


CHICAGO -- If you’re looking for progress or advancement in the Chicago Cubs' rebuilding process then maybe there’s something to see on the starting staff heading into 2014 and beyond.
Instead of three names -- Jeff Samardzija, Travis Wood and Edwin Jackson -- as part of the current core, the Cubs might have added a fourth when Jake Arrieta was acquired from the Baltimore Orioles for Scott Feldman earlier this season. It sounds like Arrieta is entrenched heading into spring training next year.

“If you’re looking at it, you’re looking at a fifth spot,” manager Dale Sveum said before Arrieta shut down the Pittsburgh Pirates, 4-2, on Wednesday. “We have four pretty much already locked up for next year.”

Samardzija, Wood, Jackson and Arrieta have jobs to lose. They’re all young enough or have contracts that indicate they can be here for the next several years. No one can say how productive they can be.


“I’ll be the first to tell you there’s competition in every spring training you are a part of, regardless of the organization,” Arrieta said. “Spot or no spot, I intend on attacking the offseason the same way.”

Sveum said the Cubs would have the same plan as last spring in terms of having up to 8-9 arms that can start. One of them -- maybe Chris Rusin, Scott Baker or Carlos Villanueva -– will win the No. 5 job. The Cubs will undoubtedly bring someone in from the outside as well. Their top four is what matters for the future though.

The bottom line is former hurlers Feldman and Matt Garza weren’t long-term answers here. Arrieta, at 27 years old, might be. Adding one more to the planned core of the team (though he still has a long way to go to prove himself) means maybe the Cubs are a step closer in at least one department.

And Arrieta’s stuff is top notch as he improved to 4-2 with a 3.66 ERA since the trade.

“Arrieta has a great arm, great pitches, everything,” Wednesday’s catcher J.C. Boscan said.

The change of scenery has done him well, according to Arrieta. He's felt like his turn was coming.

“I feel like it was something that was eventually going to click,” he said. “It could have been last season, it could have been two months ago.”

Maybe it’s clicking now. He finished the year with just four walks over his final three games. Control has been his biggest issue over the course of his career. And after walking Justin Morneau with the bases loaded on Wednesday he could have fallen apart. He didn’t. It was the only run of the game he gave up.

“There’s going to be jams over the course of the game,” Sveum said. “The difference between the guys that have the good seasons and sustain innings is the ones that can get out of those jams because they’re going to happen.”

No matter what you think of that foursome, at least the Cubs aren’t patching a staff together. Unless one is traded –- Samardzija would be the most likely candidate –- they have a chance to stay together for several years. Arrieta is a part of that group now.
 

brett05

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You do realize that only 76 starters have qualified for innings the past two seasons combined. Shark checks in at 56 in terms of ERA and much better when you look at FIP, xFIP, Ks, etc. The results absolutely point to a top 75 starter.

You do know you put on a more stringent qualifier then I did, right? Is it worth talking about the guys folks would want over Shark? Is there a list worth making on it?
 

SilenceS

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You do know you put on a more stringent qualifier then I did, right? Is it worth talking about the guys folks would want over Shark? Is there a list worth making on it?

[video=youtube;YaG5SAw1n0c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaG5SAw1n0c[/video]
 

dabynsky

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You do know you put on a more stringent qualifier then I did, right? Is it worth talking about the guys folks would want over Shark? Is there a list worth making on it?

Qualifying for innings is too stringent? I think that is one of the first and most important characteristics for a starting pitcher, be able to take the ball. The fact is that there have only been 76 pitchers that have been able to do that the past two years. The number for just this year is 82. There aren't that many quality starting pitchers in baseball period. Shark by every single objective measure checks in the top 75.
 

SilenceS

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Qualifying for innings is too stringent? I think that is one of the first and most important characteristics for a starting pitcher, be able to take the ball. The fact is that there have only been 76 pitchers that have been able to do that the past two years. The number for just this year is 82. There aren't that many quality starting pitchers in baseball period. Shark by every single objective measure checks in the top 75.

Ah don't bother Dabs, now he is giving out bad reputation comments.
 

beckdawg

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Since the topic of trading shark is brought up here, I'm curious to get some other people's opinion. Would you trade Castro and Shark plus a 7-15ish prospect for Cargo? Supposedly the Rockies want youth in the middle infield and pitching. Those two piece really ought to be enough to start a discussion. I'm down on Castro more than some but it would simplify matters with Baez.
 

SilenceS

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Since the topic of trading shark is brought up here, I'm curious to get some other people's opinion. Would you trade Castro and Shark plus a 7-15ish prospect for Cargo? Supposedly the Rockies want youth in the middle infield and pitching. Those two piece really ought to be enough to start a discussion. I'm down on Castro more than some but it would simplify matters with Baez.

Eh, you are losing two main pieces of the future for one with injury history. I think you could do either or then some top of the line prospects, but giving up two major league players with big upside for one that you pretty much know is at his peak is to much subtraction for addition in my opinion.
 

CSF77

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2 way street. Why would they want a SS? If it was Bryant who they wanted in the first place then there is a conversation point.
 

CSF77

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But if they move Castro or Baez to 2B. Keep Bryant at 3B. Have an OF with Almora and Soler in it. I'd be ok with Schierholtz holding over as a Cub at that point. He is not a bad player.
 

beckdawg

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Eh, you are losing two main pieces of the future for one with injury history. I think you could do either or then some top of the line prospects, but giving up two major league players with big upside for one that you pretty much know is at his peak is to much subtraction for addition in my opinion.

I agree it's a lot to give up. But, until Shark is under contract he is a 2 year rental in my opinion. And until that point I don't really view him as part of the future. Maybe they do end up getting a deal done. I don't think we can really speak to how close they are. But, it sure doesn't seem like anything is imminent and if that's the case it's Castro and 2 years of Shark. I'm not going to say either way on the deal but I think it's worth considering and I also think that's the type of package it would take to get him. I don't see Shark plus Alcantara and say Vogelbach getting it done.

As for the rockies wanting young middle infielders , I don't know but that's the reports I read. I guess supposedly they are also considering getting rid of Tulow for reasons I have no idea why. I suppose they could always move him to 3B as he grows with age.
 

CSF77

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Seemed more of a speculative article vs fact driven. Not putting value in it.
 

SilenceS

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Tulo is a different animal. Tulo is much more valuable to me over Cargo.
 

CSF77

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Funny thing is why worry about Tulo at SS when Jeter handled SS into 40. Like I said not much fact basis and the site looks pretty indi to me. Like our site. Voice of the people.
 

waldo7239117

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I like Tulo, but his injury history would care me if I was a team acquiring him. Especially for the steep price he would cost.
 

beckdawg

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Funny thing is why worry about Tulo at SS when Jeter handled SS into 40. Like I said not much fact basis and the site looks pretty indi to me. Like our site. Voice of the people.

Yeah, I don't know why there are any reports bout tulo. I'm just saying that's what out there at the moment.
 

brett05

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Qualifying for innings is too stringent? I think that is one of the first and most important characteristics for a starting pitcher, be able to take the ball. The fact is that there have only been 76 pitchers that have been able to do that the past two years. The number for just this year is 82. There aren't that many quality starting pitchers in baseball period. Shark by every single objective measure checks in the top 75.

You've used one. What are the objective stats.
 

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