Jackson admits Gasol goaltended

[Diddy1122]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/news/story?id=4246830

I was kind of surprised when I saw this. Yes it could have been called a goaltend but I understand why it wasn't. Gasol hitting the rim had absolutely no effect on Lee's complete whiff of a layup. That ball was not going in no matter what Gasol did to the rim or backboard.

Plus Howard had a blatant goaltend at the beginning of the game that wasn't called either.

 

[senrad]

I'm not sure of the NBA rule but in college it would be a goaltend. Any contact with the rim or the net is a goaltend, regardless of wether or not the shot was effected. Thats what they teach us anyway. Not sure if I have ever made that call and I have done hundreds maybe thousands of games.

 

[??? ??????]

Lakers fans are too cocky right now. I don't think that they comprehend that Dwight Howard is a better player than Kobe Bryant when you are basing it on overall impact of the game. Yes, Kobe is a much more skilled player than Dwight, but Dwight's impact is unmatched. Obviously, because he's a center, he affects every player on the opposing, and not just his own man on defense, something Kobe really can't do.

Offensively, Kobe is single covered quite a bit, and then he will get met by some help defense if he gets towards the paint. Dwight Howard? LA's been double, tripling, quadruple teaming him every time he touches the ball. Kobe doesn't command the same amount of defensive attention.

Lakers should be viewed as the favorites, but Dwight Howard is such an impactful player, that it was never going to be easy for the Lakers. I think the Magic are going to win these next two games, and then it comes down to whether or not they can get a win in LA.

 

[houheffna]

Lakers fans are too cocky right now. I don't think that they comprehend that Dwight Howard is a better player than Kobe Bryant when you are basing it on overall impact of the game. Yes, Kobe is a much more skilled player than Dwight, but Dwight's impact is unmatched. Obviously, because he's a center, he affects every player on the opposing, and not just his own man on defense, something Kobe really can't do.

Offensively, Kobe is single covered quite a bit, and then he will get met by some help defense if he gets towards the paint. Dwight Howard? LA's been double, tripling, quadruple teaming him every time he touches the ball. Kobe doesn't command the same amount of defensive attention.

Lakers should be viewed as the favorites, but Dwight Howard is such an impactful player, that it was never going to be easy for the Lakers. I think the Magic are going to win these next two games, and then it comes down to whether or not they can get a win in LA.

Ummmmmmmm......you gotta be kidding me...this is just wrong, wrong, wrong!!! Based on overall impact of the game, was Shaq better than Jordan? Wrong, wrong, wrong...

 

[Bullsman24]

well i think it's easier for big men to be dominant, but only guards and small forwards can be one man teams because they can have the ball in their hands all the time.

for example, hakeem only gets his title when clyde drexler comes, despite being a top 5 all time big man for sure.

kareem needed magic, shaq needed kobe/d-wade, dwight needs hedo/rashard, duncan needs robinson/parker/manu.

there's no instance in the modern era that a big man singlehandedly won a championship. if i'm leaving anyone out, i'm sorry but i can't remember an instance.

 

[houheffna]

for example, hakeem only gets his title when clyde drexler comes, despite being a top 5 all time big man for sure.

That is incorrect, Hakeem won a championship with Vernon Maxwell in 1994 before Clyde came to town in 1995. He is the closest to winning a championship by himself.

 

[Diddy1122]

??? ?????? wrote:

Lakers fans are too cocky right now. I don't think that they comprehend that Dwight Howard is a better player than Kobe Bryant when you are basing it on overall impact of the game. Yes, Kobe is a much more skilled player than Dwight, but Dwight's impact is unmatched. Obviously, because he's a center, he affects every player on the opposing, and not just his own man on defense, something Kobe really can't do.

Offensively, Kobe is single covered quite a bit, and then he will get met by some help defense if he gets towards the paint. Dwight Howard? LA's been double, tripling, quadruple teaming him every time he touches the ball. Kobe doesn't command the same amount of defensive attention.

Lakers should be viewed as the favorites, but Dwight Howard is such an impactful player, that it was never going to be easy for the Lakers. I think the Magic are going to win these next two games, and then it comes down to whether or not they can get a win in LA.

You can't be watching the same Finals I'm watching. Howard is NOT & probably never will be better than Kobe, or more of an "impact" player as you said. That is such a ridiculous statement. Kobe is averaging 33.3ppg, 8apg, 5rpg compared to Howard whos at 16.6ppg, 15rpg, 2.6apg. The only category Howard dominates in is rebounds & that's a given. He's not even the leading scorer for the Magic in the Finals! And he's not being double teamed either. Gasol & Bynum are playing him single coverage & succeeding because..well..HE'S NOT A DOMINANT PLAYER!

I like Dwight Howard. He's an amazing athlete & a wonderful guy off the court. But just because he's big & athletic does not make him dominant. I don't even know how people even started this. He's never averaged more than 21ppg. If he shot better at FT's that might be different. He is not a polished lost-post scorer. He scores facing the basket, relying on his superior strength & athleticism to score. When you put an opposing defender of similar size on him, he has a much more difficult time. He made 1 FG in game 1. 1! That's the second lowest total ever in the Finals for a starter. And you're calling him dominant? I guarantee he will not break 40 in a single game this series.

Kobe, on the other hand, can pretty much only be stopped by Kobe. He can shoot from anywhere, get his shot of at anytime, gets to the lane whenever he wants, & (other than last night) hits 90% of his FT's. I want you to watch all the Magic players on the court when Kobe gets the ball next game. All eyes will be on Kobe.

The only thing I agree with you on is that the Magic will win the next game.

 

[RPK]

What does Phil know anyway, all he does is call timeouts, right Zo?

 

[Diddy1122]

bullsman24 wrote:

well i think it's easier for big men to be dominant, but only guards and small forwards can be one man teams because they can have the ball in their hands all the time.

for example, hakeem only gets his title when clyde drexler comes, despite being a top 5 all time big man for sure.

kareem needed magic, shaq needed kobe/d-wade, dwight needs hedo/rashard, duncan needs robinson/parker/manu.

there's no instance in the modern era that a big man singlehandedly won a championship. if i'm leaving anyone out, i'm sorry but i can't remember an instance.

Kareem won in 71 with the Bucks too. He had Big O with him, but he was on the tail end of his career & Kareem was the most dominant player on that team by far. And Hakeem won a title before Drexler got there. He pretty much single-handedly won the title in 94. The next best player was Otis Thorpe.

I understand your line of thinking & its true to some degree, but if you look at the flip side, does MJ win all those titles without Pip? Or Bird without McHale & Parish? No player, guard, forward, or center can win a championship by themselves. It takes 1 great complimentary star or 2 to do so. And other than the exception of Hakeem in 94, I can't think of a single instance where it didn't take 2-3 good-great players to win a championship.

 

[??? ??????]

Diddy1122 wrote:

??? ?????? wrote:

Lakers fans are too cocky right now. I don't think that they comprehend that Dwight Howard is a better player than Kobe Bryant when you are basing it on overall impact of the game. Yes, Kobe is a much more skilled player than Dwight, but Dwight's impact is unmatched. Obviously, because he's a center, he affects every player on the opposing, and not just his own man on defense, something Kobe really can't do.

Offensively, Kobe is single covered quite a bit, and then he will get met by some help defense if he gets towards the paint. Dwight Howard? LA's been double, tripling, quadruple teaming him every time he touches the ball. Kobe doesn't command the same amount of defensive attention.

Lakers should be viewed as the favorites, but Dwight Howard is such an impactful player, that it was never going to be easy for the Lakers. I think the Magic are going to win these next two games, and then it comes down to whether or not they can get a win in LA.

You can't be watching the same Finals I'm watching. Howard is NOT & probably never will be better than Kobe, or more of an "impact" player as you said. That is such a ridiculous statement. Kobe is averaging 33.3ppg, 8apg, 5rpg compared to Howard whos at 16.6ppg, 15rpg, 2.6apg. The only category Howard dominates in is rebounds & that's a given. He's not even the leading scorer for the Magic in the Finals! And he's not being double teamed either. Gasol & Bynum are playing him single coverage & succeeding because..well..HE'S NOT A DOMINANT PLAYER!

I like Dwight Howard. He's an amazing athlete & a wonderful guy off the court. But just because he's big & athletic does not make him dominant. I don't even know how people even started this. He's never averaged more than 21ppg. If he shot better at FT's that might be different. He is not a polished lost-post scorer. He scores facing the basket, relying on his superior strength & athleticism to score. When you put an opposing defender of similar size on him, he has a much more difficult time. He made 1 FG in game 1. 1! That's the second lowest total ever in the Finals for a starter. And you're calling him dominant? I guarantee he will not break 40 in a single game this series.

Kobe, on the other hand, can pretty much only be stopped by Kobe. He can shoot from anywhere, get his shot of at anytime, gets to the lane whenever he wants, & (other than last night) hits 90% of his FT's. I want you to watch all the Magic players on the court when Kobe gets the ball next game. All eyes will be on Kobe.

The only thing I agree with you on is that the Magic will win the next game.

The thing about Kobe in this series is that he hasn't been that good if you factor in efficiency.

He's averaging 33.3 PPG, but he's doing it on 53.57 TS%

Dwight Howard is averaging 16.7 PPG, but he's doing it on 62.44 TS%

Defensively/Rebounding wise, Dwight Howard is averaging 15 RPG and 2.7 BPG 2.3 SPG

Kobe is averaging 1.3 SPG and 0.7 BPG.

So just on baseline defensive stats, Dwight Howard is denying 2 more shots a game through blocking, and taking away 1 more posession than Kobe from stealing it. Defensively, obviously, it is no contest, largely in favor of Dwight. He alters so many shots, DPOY, led the regular season and post season in D-Rtg, the guy is the best defender in the game by a wide margin.

Kobe is averaging 8 APG. Dwight just 2.6 APG. But Dwight has had quite a few hockey assists in the series, because the Magic like to swing the ball quite a bit. Dwight obviously draws much more defensive attention than Kobe. When Dwight touches the ball the Lakers defense collapses on him everytime. Even at just the threat of him getting the ball sometimes. This helps free his teammates.

Dwight also helps his team with great picks. (The guy actually sets an illegal screen almost everytime he sets a screen, but the refs don't call it, and since he can do these illegal screens, he helps free up his teammates quite a bit with them.)

If Kobe was scoring efficiently, than it might be another story. Kobe is scoring at 53.57 TS%. His teammates are scoring at 55.9 TS%. So in this series the Lakers' posessions have been better used in Kobe's teammates hands, than in Kobe's hands. Obviously his teammates wouldn't be able to score that well without him on the team, but it's hard to give the title of best or most impactful player when his scoring has been worst than the rest of the team. Bryant needs to step it up, and start scoring at around 57 TS%.

 

[Simeon2UC]

refs suck!

 

[senrad]

I saw all the new replies to this post and thought it was going to be a heated basketball rules discussion.

If anybody is interested I have NBA ref rule books and case books (which addresses complicated incidents) from last year. Let me know if you want me to look something up or reference anything.

 

[houheffna]

The thing about Kobe in this series is that he hasn't been that good if you factor in efficiency.

He's averaging 33.3 PPG, but he's doing it on 53.57 TS%

Dwight Howard is averaging 16.7 PPG, but he's doing it on 62.44 TS%

Defensively/Rebounding wise, Dwight Howard is averaging 15 RPG and 2.7 BPG 2.3 SPG

Kobe is averaging 1.3 SPG and 0.7 BPG.

So just on baseline defensive stats, Dwight Howard is denying 2 more shots a game through blocking, and taking away 1 more posession than Kobe from stealing it. Defensively, obviously, it is no contest, largely in favor of Dwight. He alters so many shots, DPOY, led the regular season and post season in D-Rtg, the guy is the best defender in the game by a wide margin.

Kobe is averaging 8 APG. Dwight just 2.6 APG. But Dwight has had quite a few hockey assists in the series, because the Magic like to swing the ball quite a bit. Dwight obviously draws much more defensive attention than Kobe. When Dwight touches the ball the Lakers defense collapses on him everytime. Even at just the threat of him getting the ball sometimes. This helps free his teammates.

Dwight also helps his team with great picks. (The guy actually sets an illegal screen almost everytime he sets a screen, but the refs don't call it, and since he can do these illegal screens, he helps free up his teammates quite a bit with them.)

If Kobe was scoring efficiently, than it might be another story. Kobe is scoring at 53.57 TS%. His teammates are scoring at 55.9 TS%. So in this series the Lakers' posessions have been better used in Kobe's teammates hands, than in Kobe's hands. Obviously his teammates wouldn't be able to score that well without him on the team, but it's hard to give the title of best or most impactful player when his scoring has been worst than the rest of the team. Bryant needs to step it up, and start scoring at around 57 TS%.

Thank you, thank you, thank you....your argument and the stats that you use validate my argument since I have been on this forum...stats have much less meaning than actually watching the games. NO ONE who watches basketball puts Howard over Kobe right now. Not even in Orlando. Anybody watching basketball knows that they are watching the second best SG in NBA history and arguably a top 10 all time player. Howard is not there, period. Unbelievable man, just admit that you are wrong about this and move on...