Jeff Passan’s Thoughts on Eloy and Cease for Quintana

[CSF77]

WTF is wrong with you? Just when I think you can't pose a more ridiculous scenario, you double down on your idiocy.

Do you honestly think that if the Cubs win the World Series this year, and lets say Quintana is the fourth starter in the WS and gets a no-decision, Cubs will fans bemoan the fact that Theo traded Jimenez for Quintana, because even though they won another WS its upsetting that Jose wasn't a big contributor?

Right now it is Eloy for Q. Cease hasn't tossed a single inning yet.

The Cubs at that time were deep in OF and lacked controlled SP. Jake was going to over ask in FA and Lacky was over the hill. Add to it their #5 situation was in flux.

So from a needs perspective they needed a controlled starter at that point and going forward.

You really can't look beyond Hendricks and Lester on that team. Hamels on the market and Darvish signing were not set in stone.

Looking back at it sure you would have done things differently but at that moment it was a clear need.

That is why it is really hard to look at these deals in the aftermath. You really have to look at them at the perspective Theo had first. Sure he knew that he was giving up alot. But at that time Cease was struggling to pitch 5 innings and Eloy was pushed into LF due to his lackings on D. Cubs already had a power bat there.

 

[Rory Sparrow]

Right now it is Eloy for Q. Cease hasn't tossed a single inning yet.

The Cubs at that time were deep in OF and lacked controlled SP. Jake was going to over ask in FA and Lacky was over the hill. Add to it their #5 situation was in flux.

So from a needs perspective they needed a controlled starter at that point and going forward.

You really can't look beyond Hendricks and Lester on that team. Hamels on the market and Darvish signing were not set in stone.

Looking back at it sure you would have done things differently but at that moment it was a clear need.

That is why it is really hard to look at these deals in the aftermath. You really have to look at them at the perspective Theo had first. Sure he knew that he was giving up alot. But at that time Cease was struggling to pitch 5 innings and Eloy was pushed into LF due to his lackings on D. Cubs already had a power bat there.

Not sure why my posting was quoted in your response, but thanks! I agree with what you said.

 

[CSF77]

To be honest with the Cubs lackings in self development in pitching I'm in doubt that Cease would have broke out with the Cubs anyways. Sox are in a better situation to allow young players to fail.

When I look at Maples I feel that he needs the opertunity to fail vs superior talent. That is what it takes to grow. Gilito has failed which has to happen to learn how to be great.

It is a process and that IMO is the core issue while in a winning window. I hope that they give Alzolay a shot because he has impact talent. But again they went with Chatwood vs the Mets. Again it has to do with winning vs development

 

[dennehy]

Good, long discussion of this today:

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/c...Yu07aGnLeV2-kxGKSlKGsWtSuf03r1kutCIcbYZyTmTGY

 

[playthrough2001]

WTF is wrong with you? Just when I think you can't pose a more ridiculous scenario, you double down on your idiocy.

Do you honestly think that if the Cubs win the World Series this year, and lets say Quintana is the fourth starter in the WS and gets a no-decision, Cubs will fans bemoan the fact that Theo traded Jimenez for Quintana, because even though they won another WS its upsetting that Jose wasn't a big contributor?

You really are a piece of work. How do you manage to post so much while bagging groceries at the Crystal Lake Jewel? Are you the Union Steward?

I think Eloy potentially has a HOF bat and Cease has the stuff to be a 1 or a 2. It was a bad trade for the Cubs. It happens. The White Sox traded the Cubs Sammy Sosa for George Bell and he hit 609 home runs most of them for the Cubs. Granted Sosa is certainly not beloved but he provided a hell of a lot of production for the price of George Bell.

 

[Rory Sparrow]

I think Eloy potentially has a HOF bat and Cease has the stuff to be a 1 or a 2. It was a bad trade for the Cubs. It happens. The White Sox traded the Cubs Sammy Sosa for George Bell and he hit 609 home runs most of them for the Cubs. Granted Sosa is certainly not beloved but he provided a hell of a lot of production for the price of George Bell.

I'm not disagreeing. I think even at the time of the trade, a lot of people had Eloy earmarked for superstar success. My issue and what I responded to you was you saying:

They needed to win in ‘17 or ‘18 for this deal to even have a chance of making sense.

Again, how did/does the deal not "make sense" to you? Its your typical contending team trading away prospects for current player situation. I understand why the Cubs made the trade when they did. Not many starting pitchers were even available, even less had bargain contracts, and the Brewers were also trying to snag Quintana.

 

[playthrough2001]

I'm not disagreeing. I think even at the time of the trade, a lot of people had Eloy earmarked for superstar success. My issue and what I responded to you was you saying:



Again, how did/does the deal not "make sense" to you? Its your typical contending team trading away prospects for current player situation. I understand why the Cubs made the trade when they did. Not many starting pitchers were even available, even less had bargain contracts, and the Brewers were also trying to snag Quintana.

It doesn't make sense to me because I never felt Q was the type of pitcher/talent that warranted that type of return and certainly not the piece that would make the difference in a championship run then, now or in 2020 even if you consider it a "typical" move by a contender no matter what he cost or what team wanted him. Your thinking is bound by convention. Theo obviously felt that way too. I'm glad he was committed to the idea and the deal. If you still want to banter about this, please go bother somebody else.

 

[ZOMBIE@CTESPN]

I agree I think the cubs fleeced themselves. There were no reports of any other teams willing to go to those lengths for q. I think it was all about that contract. He’s an ok pitcher but nothing worth what we got

 

[MDB111™]

He was on with Waddle and Silvy and said this trade may turn out to be an “all timer” for each team. He said Eloy might be enough to qualify the trade but he said if Cease is a top pitcher this will be one of the best or worst trades ever depending on which side you fall on.

I was at the game last night and thinking about it as Eloy was hammering the Yanks. I believe the Cubs are already regretting this move. It is going to sting for a long time.

The Chapman trade was the same IMO only we won the title.
We made a similar move the following year and did not win a title.
If we win one more in the next 1-3 years, I won't be mad with the Quintana trade, but if we don't then, yeah it seems like a franchise set up for the Sox.

All that said though, this is what you get with Theo. He won us the big one. You can't ever take that away from him. He is paid to constantly put us in contention for a WS. Would you not say that we are in the hunt every year thus far and already won one thus far?

 

[playthrough2001]

The Chapman trade was the same IMO only we won the title.
We made a similar move the following year and did not win a title.
If we win one more in the next 1-3 years, I won't be mad with the Quintana trade, but if we don't then, yeah it seems like a franchise set up for the Sox.

All that said though, this is what you get with Theo. He won us the big one. You can't ever take that away from him. He is paid to constantly put us in contention for a WS. Would you not say that we are in the hunt every year thus far and already won one thus far?

I was happy when the Cubs won. Most of my close friends are Cub fans. Theo has won titles with two generational losers. His place in baseball history is set.

 

[zack54attack]

Eloy 0-3, 1 K tonight.







Cubs won the trade.

 

[Rory Sparrow]

If you still want to banter about this, please go bother somebody else.

Sorry that you are so upset. Not sure how adding a quality starting pitcher wouldn't make a difference in a championship run, but a 20-year old corner OF in the minors would. If that type of logic/"thinking" is 'bound by convention' in your world, then I don't know what else to tell you.

 

[playthrough2001]

Sorry that you are so upset. Not sure how adding a quality starting pitcher wouldn't make a difference in a championship run, but a 20-year old corner OF in the minors would. If that type of logic/"thinking" is 'bound by convention' in your world, then I don't know what else to tell you.

Why would I be upset? I think you are a joke.

 

[Rory Sparrow]

Why would I be upset? I think you are a joke.

How is your washing machine different than your girlfriend?

You don't have to hug your washing machine after dropping a load in it.

 

[Raskolnikov]

They got something valuable in return that was ready during high WS window...that underperfomed.

They gave up a cherry minor leaguer.

Correct. Nobody is arguing the trade isn't lopsided...but this shit happens all the time. Q hasn't been as good as hoped in the NL. Maybe Wrigley is bad for him, perhaps outfield is his compliment and the Cubs great infield doesn't assist him as much as others.

Whatever it is, he hasn't been terrible.

The point I've been making is they actually got something of value that is still paying returns...but the real value was 2 years ago..

 

[playthrough2001]

The White Sox were on the other side of a trade that also just didn’t make sense to me. Trading Tatis Jr. for Shields is in the same category as Eloy, Cease and two throw ins for Q. At least the Cubs were legitimately in contention at the time of their deal. The White Sox were dreaming and Shields was already showing signs he was on the decline.

 

[Raskolnikov]

I'm not disagreeing. I think even at the time of the trade, a lot of people had Eloy earmarked for superstar success. My issue and what I responded to you was you saying:



Again, how did/does the deal not "make sense" to you? Its your typical contending team trading away prospects for current player situation. I understand why the Cubs made the trade when they did. Not many starting pitchers were even available, even less had bargain contracts, and the Brewers were also trying to snag Quintana.

The other thing is the Cubs believed they were up to their necks in HOF bats. After Heyward displayed leadership and helped win the world series...and Schwarber to LF...their outfield was tight with guys they were in love with.

They couldn't anticipate the shift would appear and make Schwarber a .230 hitter, trouble rizzo and Bryant would be inconsistent.

They thought they had 1-4 with Baez also set-up...and they used a future surplus bat to get several years on a quality cost controlled starter their rival was sniffing.

I'm a Sox fan and I love that the Sox fleeced them...I'm not doing anything but arguing against the idea that the Cubs got nothing.

They paid a steep steep price to increase their immediate playoff situation and to acquire a cost controlled pitcher for several years. They are still reeping benefits of the trade, and Quintana for his struggles didn't fall off the map completely like Barry Zito.

Any talk of "worst all time" or whatever doesn't take into account all that the Cubs got and still get and might get in the future.

They never should have let Eloy go for anybody, but he was dealt from a place of arrogance and surplus bats. Schwarber didnt' become what they thought in LF and if anything that was their mistake.

They could have given the Sox Scwarber instead of Eloy at the time.

 

[SilenceS]

The other thing is the Cubs believed they were up to their necks in HOF bats. After Heyward displayed leadership and helped win the world series...and Schwarber to LF...their outfield was tight with guys they were in love with.

They couldn't anticipate the shift would appear and make Schwarber a .230 hitter, trouble rizzo and Bryant would be inconsistent.

They thought they had 1-4 with Baez also set-up...and they used a future surplus bat to get several years on a quality cost controlled starter their rival was sniffing.

I'm a Sox fan and I love that the Sox fleeced them...I'm not doing anything but arguing against the idea that the Cubs got nothing.

They paid a steep steep price to increase their immediate playoff situation and to acquire a cost controlled pitcher for several years. They are still reeping benefits of the trade, and Quintana for his struggles didn't fall off the map completely like Barry Zito.

Any talk of "worst all time" or whatever doesn't take into account all that the Cubs got and still get and might get in the future.

They never should have let Eloy go for anybody, but he was dealt from a place of arrogance and surplus bats. Schwarber didnt' become what they thought in LF and if anything that was their mistake.

They could have given the Sox Scwarber instead of Eloy at the time.

Wut?

 

[Raskolnikov]

Wut?

without the shift Rizzo and Harper were MVP candidates...now they are just very good

 

[SilenceS]

without the shift Rizzo and Harper were MVP candidates...now they are just very good

Lay off the drugs and that wasnt even what you said originslly