Jimmy Butler

[DirtyDutchDiggler]

I still go back to the old ESPN forums with this conversation and think about how I was criticized saying that Jimmy was going to be a superstar when Thibs finally took the leash off. I may have gone a bit overboard comparing his first 3 years with that of Kobe Bryant's but if you add in Jimmy's constant defensive intensity and ability to get others involved to Kobe's offensive prowess they are not extremely far off. Jimmy is a monster that Dr. "Thibs" Frankenstein created and it is sad to see what happened in the end of that last good time they had as a team with Rose/Noah/Jimmy. I put all the blame on GarPax; not just for that situation, but for many others as well during that time.

 

[Bust]

I still go back to the old ESPN forums with this conversation and think about how I was criticized saying that Jimmy was going to be a superstar when Thibs finally took the leash off. I may have gone a bit overboard comparing his first 3 years with that of Kobe Bryant's but if you add in Jimmy's constant defensive intensity and ability to get others involved to Kobe's offensive prowess they are not extremely far off. Jimmy is a monster that Dr. "Thibs" Frankenstein created and it is sad to see what happened in the end of that last good time they had as a team with Rose/Noah/Jimmy. I put all the blame on GarPax; not just for that situation, but for many others as well during that time.

Very good points!

I remember when the trade rumors got hot and heavy and chicago news outlets interviewed Jimmy. He looked sad. HE WANTED TO BE HERE!

#epicfail

 

[clonetrooper264]

I still go back to the old ESPN forums with this conversation and think about how I was criticized saying that Jimmy was going to be a superstar when Thibs finally took the leash off. I may have gone a bit overboard comparing his first 3 years with that of Kobe Bryant's but if you add in Jimmy's constant defensive intensity and ability to get others involved to Kobe's offensive prowess they are not extremely far off. Jimmy is a monster that Dr. "Thibs" Frankenstein created and it is sad to see what happened in the end of that last good time they had as a team with Rose/Noah/Jimmy. I put all the blame on GarPax; not just for that situation, but for many others as well during that time.

Yeah GarPax messed a lot of things up in their tenure for sure. It's kinda interesting to see them hit on so many picks but then squander it away in some fashion. Though perhaps you can say the DRose era wasn't quite their fault as Lebron and injuries are out of their control. They missed on their fair share of picks as well as we all know. The end of the Jimmy Butler era was quite a disaster and perhaps best displays the issues with that FO.

 

[Bust]

I still go back to the old ESPN forums with this conversation and think about how I was criticized saying that Jimmy was going to be a superstar when Thibs finally took the leash off. I may have gone a bit overboard comparing his first 3 years with that of Kobe Bryant's but if you add in Jimmy's constant defensive intensity and ability to get others involved to Kobe's offensive prowess they are not extremely far off. Jimmy is a monster that Dr. "Thibs" Frankenstein created and it is sad to see what happened in the end of that last good time they had as a team with Rose/Noah/Jimmy. I put all the blame on GarPax; not just for that situation, but for many others as well during that time.

you were dead on money sir!

 

[clonetrooper264]

I mean if you really want to pile onto GarPax, it's stuff like this that makes you cringe

Rumor: Bulls told Jimmy Butler during contract-extension negotiations they'd stick him behind Tony Snell if he didn't sign

Did that contribute to Gar Forman-Tom Thibodeau rift?

nba.nbcsports.com

 

[DirtyDutchDiggler]

The game when Jimmy announced his arrival and yes it was a preseason game and he never looked back:

 

[clonetrooper264]

The game when Jimmy announced his arrival and yes it was a preseason game and he never looked back:

Man I just got nostalgic watching that...what could've been

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Imagine a team with Butler and Derozan...NO THREES EVER

And yeah, Butler would've forced his way off this current team as well

It's easy to play the hypothetical game. However, the trade the Bulls made was very bad, in hindsight. The Bulls making that trade was meant to happen and part of a broader picture of ineptitude. Keeping Butler in itself wouldn't have solved all of their problems and would have had to actually make other good decisions as well.

As far as the 3 pointers thing, I'm pretty sure Jordan/Pippen or LeBron/Wade weren't the highest volume three point shooting wing combos either.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

 

[clonetrooper264]

It's easy to play the hypothetical game. However, the trade the Bulls made was very bad, in hindsight. The Bulls making that trade was meant to happen and part of a broader picture of ineptitude. Keeping Butler in itself wouldn't have solved all of their problems and would have had to actually make other good decisions as well.

As far as the 3 pointers thing, I'm pretty sure Jordan/Pippen or LeBron/Wade weren't the highest volume three point shooting wing combos either.

Yes it's all hypothetical. GarPax totally bungled that situation and now reading back on articles released at that time it seemed that (at least from Jimmy's perspective) they were all in on trying to trade Butler away. Who knows how much of that is true, but it was a bad trade at the time and in hindsight based on the return alone. Sure Zach did end up bouncing back from that ACL and becoming an All Star in his own right, but he's no Jimmy Butler...and he's the only true asset we got out of that deal as the pick turned into whatever we traded Lauri for (meh) and Kris Dunn (bust). We absolutely lost that trade, even if Minnesota ended up trading him a year later.

I'm not gonna split hairs about the 3s thing, it's just a funny idea to me because they're two wings that don't shoot 3s (in general). I am aware that Wade and MJ weren't high volume 3pt shooters either...at least MJ has the 90s to blame as 3s in general were very low volume. Interestingly Pippen took like 4-5 3s per game in their 2nd 3peat, kind of a lot for that era. Jimmy actually did shoot 3s with the Bulls, he kinda stopped after getting to Philly and Miami and his percentage fell off a cliff (got a lot better from midrange though). Also hilariously Demar shot a career high from 3 this year. Long story short, not saying it wouldn't work, just that there would not be a lot of 3s from that duo which in today's NBA is very counter cultural.

 

[clonetrooper264]

One other thought on the theoretical Butler/Derozan duo...that duo would average like 20 FTAs per game and maybe more in the playoffs. They get to the line at will which is just a huge luxury to have.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Yes it's all hypothetical. GarPax totally bungled that situation and now reading back on articles released at that time it seemed that (at least from Jimmy's perspective) they were all in on trying to trade Butler away. Who knows how much of that is true, but it was a bad trade at the time and in hindsight based on the return alone. Sure Zach did end up bouncing back from that ACL and becoming an All Star in his own right, but he's no Jimmy Butler...and he's the only true asset we got out of that deal as the pick turned into whatever we traded Lauri for (meh) and Kris Dunn (bust). We absolutely lost that trade, even if Minnesota ended up trading him a year later.

I'm not gonna split hairs about the 3s thing, it's just a funny idea to me because they're two wings that don't shoot 3s (in general). I am aware that Wade and MJ weren't high volume 3pt shooters either...at least MJ has the 90s to blame as 3s in general were very low volume. Interestingly Pippen took like 4-5 3s per game in their 2nd 3peat, kind of a lot for that era. Jimmy actually did shoot 3s with the Bulls, he kinda stopped after getting to Philly and Miami and his percentage fell off a cliff (got a lot better from midrange though). Also hilariously Demar shot a career high from 3 this year. Long story short, not saying it wouldn't work, just that there would not be a lot of 3s from that duo which in today's NBA is very counter cultural.

From 1994-1997, the three point line was 1.75 feet closer. It was the same distance as it was in the corners all the way around the arc. It definitely helped Jordan's and Pippen's scoring efficiency.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

One other thought on the theoretical Butler/Derozan duo...that duo would average like 20 FTAs per game and maybe more in the playoffs. They get to the line at will which is just a huge luxury to have.

We saw how dangerous Butler/Wade(w/no knees)/Rondo could look together. Bulls were up 2-0 vs. top-seeded Boston before Rondo went down before Game 3.

 

[clonetrooper264]

From 1994-1997, the three point line was 1.75 feet closer. It was the same distance as it was in the corners all the way around the arc. It definitely helped Jordan's and Pippen's scoring efficiency.

Ah I forgot about that. Definitely helped Pippen a lot. MJ still didn't take too many 3s, but his percentage was way higher those seasons so definitely reaping the benefits of that change.

 

[clonetrooper264]

We saw how dangerous Butler/Wade(w/no knees)/Rondo could look together. Bulls were up 2-0 vs. top-seeded Boston before Rondo went down before Game 3.

What's even more amazing is knowing how dysfunctional that team was internally. Not even counting the blunders of the FO, it just seemed like Rondo was constantly clashing with Wade and Butler. Ironic how then after Rondo went down how lifeless the team appeared the rest of the way. Wade basically fell off and the one game he didn't do poorly in Jimmy had a bad game.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

What's even more amazing is knowing how dysfunctional that team was internally. Not even counting the blunders of the FO, it just seemed like Rondo was constantly clashing with Wade and Butler. Ironic how then after Rondo went down how lifeless the team appeared the rest of the way. Wade basically fell off and the one game he didn't do poorly in Jimmy had a bad game.

Never liked Rondo. There's a lot to dislike on and off the floor. He's a big hot head and dirty. Not surprised about what he's being accused of right now re:domestic violence. It was weird seeing him on the Bulls. But I appreciate his hard-nosed style and how he elevates his game in the playoffs (like Butler and Wade have).

He wasn't wrong about what he said about Wade and Butler and their poor treatment of the Bulls young supporting cast. That wasn't going to help the team. I think they saw the writing on the wall and they were in it for themselves. Plus, Wade and Butler are good friends and were enjoying playing together on a ship that they knew was being steered awry. A contending team going in the right direction, like the Heat, was obviously the best situation for Jimmy.

 

[DirtyDutchDiggler]

Here is my coulda/shoulda and this is even after Derrick's first ACL:

1. Bulls held on to Deng 1 1/2 too long. Deng was a black hole offensively and probably the main reason Rose only averaged 6-8 assist his first 4 years. I can't even remember how many times the defense would collapse on Rose's penetration leaving Deng wide open for him to pump-fake a defender six feet away and drive to the middle for contested shot or pass it off. Jimmy started next to him the last 15 games of the 2012-2013 and putting up rather consistent numbers. If he would have had the whole year to start without Deng, I believe he would have been ready the following year to be a monster next to Rose. We could have also flipped him for something useful. Instead the front office reached as rumor had it they wanted the #7 pick Harrison Barnes.
There were lots of SG's/SF's being shopped that year. M. Ellis/R. Jefferson/G. Wallace/Swaggy P. Hell, Even Barbosa who was traded for a 2nd rnd. pick would have fit nicely in a starting lineup with Rose/Butler/Boozer/Noah

2. Rose's second ACL tear. if that didn't happen and Jimmy having a full year of starting experience with the first scenario they would have been the back court duo of the future. The only part that couldn't have been avoided. (?)

3. The FO should have grown some balls and had someone else run the offense other than Thibs. The one fault I had with the man was his offense was so basic and predictable.

4. Teague????? All the real good mid to late first round picks they had made before and you land on him? CMON MAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNN!!!! Scouts dropped the ball that time.

 

[Scoot26]

Here is my coulda/shoulda and this is even after Derrick's first ACL:

1. Bulls held on to Deng 1 1/2 too long. Deng was a black hole offensively and probably the main reason Rose only averaged 6-8 assist his first 4 years. I can't even remember how many times the defense would collapse on Rose's penetration leaving Deng wide open for him to pump-fake a defender six feet away and drive to the middle for contested shot or pass it off. Jimmy started next to him the last 15 games of the 2012-2013 and putting up rather consistent numbers. If he would have had the whole year to start without Deng, I believe he would have been ready the following year to be a monster next to Rose. We could have also flipped him for something useful. Instead the front office reached as rumor had it they wanted the #7 pick Harrison Barnes.
There were lots of SG's/SF's being shopped that year. M. Ellis/R. Jefferson/G. Wallace/Swaggy P. Hell, Even Barbosa who was traded for a 2nd rnd. pick would have fit nicely in a starting lineup with Rose/Butler/Boozer/Noah

I think this harder than anyone thinks, especially given there was just a whole lot of uncertainty concerning Rose. In 13-14, they wanted to try one last time with that core, and well Rose didn't last long. I also understand they basically just ended up dumping Deng for nothing. But GarPax were famous for those kind of trades. Suffice it to say they were never going to make a good trade involving Deng.

2. Rose's second ACL tear. if that didn't happen and Jimmy having a full year of starting experience with the first scenario they would have been the back court duo of the future. The only part that couldn't have been avoided. (?)

Rose never tore his ACL twice, he tore his meniscus, opted for a repair vs snip, then tore his meniscus again in 14-15.

3. The FO should have grown some balls and had someone else run the offense other than Thibs. The one fault I had with the man was his offense was so basic and predictable.

This probably wouldn't have solved a whole lot.

4. Teague????? All the real good mid to late first round picks they had made before and you land on him? CMON MAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNN!!!! Scouts dropped the ball that time.

Teague was the 29th pick. How often do 29th pick work out? The late 1st round picks they had made before were Taj at 26 and Butler at 30. Teague absolutely was a bad pick, though I get it if you're basing it off raw potential. I believe many thought Teague would go earlier than 29, which is why the Bulls took him there (which is similar to Ayo this year, but worked out for the Bulls). I've read things that Thibs wanted a guy like Draymond, which defensively would be great, but the team didn't exactly need more defense in the years coming at that time.

 

[knoxville7]

We saw how dangerous Butler/Wade(w/no knees)/Rondo could look together. Bulls were up 2-0 vs. top-seeded Boston before Rondo went down before Game 3.

So rondo was the most important guy of the 3 to the teams success is your point?

 

[knoxville7]

The hiring of Fred Hoiberg goes along with the piss poor management the Bulls had for the previous dozen years prior to the incident.

IIRC most of CCS was stoked over the hoiberg hiring