Jordan, Kobe and Lebron...

[houheffna]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOsamobHeMc


Jordan gives his opinion on who is better between Kobe and Lebron...this is supposedly after the decision...


That said if Kobe beats this 3-headed monster...his legend grows exponentially....

 

[RC_Skinny22]

I agree with Jordan and with Hou.

 

[Kush77]

If Kobe does knock of the Heat it will be an amazing feat. Hey lets coin that.

I think Kobe is the 2nd best player ever. Maybe if LA knocks off Maimi people will give Kobe more credit.

But what am I saying... the Heat won't make the Finals. They don't have a center. :dry:

I got three guys at work telling me that they won't win 65 games. Injuries considered of course, but the Heat will win a ton of games. I think they can win 70. Especially if they get Mike Miller and fisher in there.

If the Lakers can beat them, it will be something else.

I'm sure we'll get our first look at that matchup on X-mas day.

 

[TheStig]

Kush 65+ wins will put them up there with some of the best teams ever. I think they will get there, just not year one or two. Your trifecta of 2nd rounders don't give me the same confidence. They will be good and 50+ wins but I don't see them winning. the east right away.

 

[pinkizdead]

i became a laker fan 3 days ago. In the sense that they're my favorite team in the west. I will always be a bulls fan, but i'd love it some1 knocked lebron his a$$. Go kobe and artest!

 

[Kush77]

TheStig wrote:

Kush 65+ wins will put them up there with some of the best teams ever. I think they will get there, just not year one or two. Your trifecta of 2nd rounders don't give me the same confidence. They will be good and 50+ wins but I don't see them winning. the east right away.

But why? Were Kendrick Perkins and Rajon Rondo highly though of before KG and Allen go there? People doubted them. Rondo has turned out to be pretty good, butter than most people thought.

What if the Heat get Mike Miller and Derek Fisher? Kwame Brown could be just as good as Perkins playing with those three.

65+ wins will put them as one of the best teams ever because they will be. But you can win 60+ games and not be a historically great team. The 1995 Rockets beat 3 60-win teams en route to the Finals. Jazz, Suns, Spurs. Edit: Suns won 59. I was wrong

I just keep going back to my main point - If LBJ can lead a mediocre roster to the 2007 NBA Finals and two decent teams (that were upset) to back-to-back 60 win seasons - he's somehow going to do worse with Wade and Bosh?

Just because people are saying he'll never compare to Jordan now (myself included) doesn't mean he's still not capable of doing great things. Now he has the best teammates he's ever had.

It's like people who want to rip Bosh now. "Oh he's never won anything." True. The same things were said about Pau Gasol remember? "I don't want the Bulls to get him, he's never won a playoff game."

Then Pau gets with Kobe - three years later - he's won quite a few playoff games.

Chris Bosh has never won in Toronto, true, they lost to NJ in the 2007 playoffs. But now he's playing with two of the Top 4 players in the NBA. Winning will no longer be an issue for Chris Bosh.

 

[clonetrooper264]

No one will be able to say anything about anyone on this team winning because all they will do is win. You can, however, complain all you like about how they didn't win by themselves (minus Wade).

 

[pinkizdead]

i have the heat winning the east, but i still think they CAN ( not will) will loose to the lakers. if lebron sits another final out, we can win. : ) if we get gordon back, i have renewed hope. we need one more offensive weapon Gordon can win us a couple games by himself. bring brewer off the bench to be a wade stopper( he doesnt have the athleticism to guard a 2. )

 

[houheffna]

The Bulls need a shooting guard with the ability to score and guard his position. Gordon could come off the bench and score. For 12 mil, I would rather go after a player like Mayo. You guys have to think bigger than you do.

My point about Kobe is that he has to be mentioned among the best to ever play because this is a very daunting task.

 

[Fred]

Let's say, for argument's sake, that the Heat win the next 5 titles. LeBron wins the Finals MVP for 4 of them. No one will remember what we are arguing today. If LBJ wins 5 titles in a row, regardless of the fact that Wade and Bosh are his teammates...as long as he wins the Finals MVP in 4 out of the 5, most people will say he is better than Kobe. And most people will start comparing him to Jordan.

To prove my point, for Kobe's first 3 titles, here was the Finals MVP:

2000 -- Shaquille O'Neal, L.A. Lakers
Averaged 38.0 points, 16.7 rebounds and 2.67 blocks to lead the Lakers to a 4-2 victory over the Indiana Pacers and the franchise’s first NBA Championship since 1988. O’Neal’s best Finals performances came at the Staples Center with 43 points, 19 rebounds in Game #1, 40 points, 24 rebounds in Game #2 and 41 points, 12 rebounds in Game #6.

2001 -- Shaquille O'Neal, L.A. Lakers
Averaged 33.0 points, 15.6 rebounds and 3.40 blocks to lead the Lakers to a 4-1victory over the Philadelphia 76ers and the franchise’s second consecutive NBA Championship. O’Neal’s best Finals performances came at the Staples Center with 44 points, 20 rebounds and five assists in Game #1, 28 points, 20 rebounds and nine assists in Game #2 and 34 points, 14 rebounds in Game #4.

2002 -- Shaquille O'Neal, L.A. Lakers
Averaged 36.3 points, 12.3 rebounds and 2.75 blocks to lead the Lakers to a sweep of the New Jersey Nets and the franchise’s third consecutive NBA Championship. O’Neal’s best Finals performances came at the Staples Center with 36 points, 16 rebounds and four blocks in Game #1, 40 points, 12 rebounds and eight assists in Game #2, 35 points, 11 rebounds and four blocks in Game #3.

I think you can make a very good argument that Pau Gasol was the Finals MVP this year. Regardless, Kobe definitely wasn't even the best player on his own team for 60% of his titles. If LBJ can be the best player on these Heat teams (I think he clearly is, despite how great Wade is), win multiple titles, and win Finals MVP....the Kobe-LBJ argument will be finished in favor of LBJ.

 

[??? ??????]

Lebron's legacy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBRhoB5V_fA

Lebron's a better player, but Kobe will end with the better legacy.

 

[houheffna]

Let's say, for argument's sake, that the Heat win the next 5 titles. LeBron wins the Finals MVP for 4 of them. No one will remember what we are arguing today. If LBJ wins 5 titles in a row, regardless of the fact that Wade and Bosh are his teammates...as long as he wins the Finals MVP in 4 out of the 5, most people will say he is better than Kobe. And most people will start comparing him to Jordan.

To prove my point, for Kobe's first 3 titles, here was the Finals MVP:

2000 -- Shaquille O'Neal, L.A. Lakers
Averaged 38.0 points, 16.7 rebounds and 2.67 blocks to lead the Lakers to a 4-2 victory over the Indiana Pacers and the franchise’s first NBA Championship since 1988. O’Neal’s best Finals performances came at the Staples Center with 43 points, 19 rebounds in Game #1, 40 points, 24 rebounds in Game #2 and 41 points, 12 rebounds in Game #6.

2001 -- Shaquille O'Neal, L.A. Lakers
Averaged 33.0 points, 15.6 rebounds and 3.40 blocks to lead the Lakers to a 4-1victory over the Philadelphia 76ers and the franchise’s second consecutive NBA Championship. O’Neal’s best Finals performances came at the Staples Center with 44 points, 20 rebounds and five assists in Game #1, 28 points, 20 rebounds and nine assists in Game #2 and 34 points, 14 rebounds in Game #4.

2002 -- Shaquille O'Neal, L.A. Lakers
Averaged 36.3 points, 12.3 rebounds and 2.75 blocks to lead the Lakers to a sweep of the New Jersey Nets and the franchise’s third consecutive NBA Championship. O’Neal’s best Finals performances came at the Staples Center with 36 points, 16 rebounds and four blocks in Game #1, 40 points, 12 rebounds and eight assists in Game #2, 35 points, 11 rebounds and four blocks in Game #3.

I think you can make a very good argument that Pau Gasol was the Finals MVP this year. Regardless, Kobe definitely wasn't even the best player on his own team for 60% of his titles. If LBJ can be the best player on these Heat teams (I think he clearly is, despite how great Wade is), win multiple titles, and win Finals MVP....the Kobe-LBJ argument will be finished in favor of LBJ.

That deviates from my point. i have said that Lebron could be the greatest ever and is more talented than either Jordan or Kobe. My point is if Kobe beats him...Kobe should get the respect that he rightly deserves. After Lebron's latest escapades, Kobe has garnered more respect. Because he has heart. That is the perception. I have always considered Kobe a tough guy mentally who would rather destroy his competition than join them. Lebron wants a title, Kobe wants to be the greatest of all time. I like Kobe's ambitions...

By the way, we can talk about taking away finals mvps from Kobe but nobody talks about him being robbed of NBA MVPs, which I find very interesting. You can make an argument that Gasol was Finals MVP...It wouldn't be a very good one. Only Kobe haters would make such an argument. Gasol didn't have a great series at all.
That is a bit too many ifs for me. Win one title first...your formula for Lebron's success applies to a lot of players. Throw Kevin Durant in there.

He has the talent to be the best ever. Unlike Kobe, he doesn't have the mentality. The reason Jordan likes Kobe is because Jordan sees himself in Kobe. And he knows that Kobe is not afraid to attack the Jordan legacy and give it his best shot. Lebron shied away from that. I think Jordan welcomes the argument of himself vs. Kobe that his fans so readily dismiss simply because he knows basketball.

 

[Fred]

houheffna wrote:

I have always considered Kobe a tough guy mentally who would rather destroy his competition than join them.

Except of course on May 31, 2007, when he wanted to join what was regarded as the best young team in the league at the time, the Chicago Bulls:

5.31.2007
First, Bryant said on 1050 ESPN Radio in New York: "I would like to be traded, yeah. Tough as it is to come to that conclusion there's no other alternative, you know?"

Bryant, interviewed by Stephen A. Smith, was asked if there was anything the Lakers could do to change his mind.

"No," Bryant said. "I just want them to do the right thing."

"[The Lakers] obviously want to move in a different direction in terms of rebuilding," Bryant said, adding he could have opted to sign with the Los Angeles Clippers or Chicago Bulls instead. "Three years ago when I was re-signing they should have told me they wanted to rebuild."

Asked if he had any preference for a trade destination, he said "At this point I'll go play on Pluto."

 

[Fred]

houheffna wrote:

Lebron wants a title, Kobe wants to be the greatest of all time. I like Kobe's ambitions....

Of course, Kobe had the luxury of winning 3 titles as a Robin. After winning titles because you were paired with the most dominant player in the NBA at the time (Shaq), he wanted to win 1 as the guy. So he sacrified winning by having the Lakers send Phil and Shaq on their way. Then he demanded a trade until Memphis gift-wrapped Gasol.

Lebron never had that luxury. He wasn't blessed with Shaq in his prime. He was stuck with Mo Williams and has-beens like Jamison. He still won 60+ and brought his band of losers to a Finals. Now we'll see what he can do with some real talent.

 

[Fred]

houheffna wrote:

By the way, we can talk about taking away finals mvps from Kobe but nobody talks about him being robbed of NBA MVPs, which I find very interesting.

#1. Kobe was never robbed of a Finals MVP. By the numbers, Shaq put up 3 of the best Finals performances in the history of basketball. End of argument.

#2. What year was Kobe robbed of an NBA MVP? I can't wait to hear this one.

 

[houheffna]

#1. Kobe was never robbed of a Finals MVP. By the numbers, Shaq put up 3 of the best Finals performances in the history of basketball. End of argument.

#2. What year was Kobe robbed of an NBA MVP? I can't wait to hear this one.

#1. End of WHAT argument? You are arguing with yourself dude...

As far as question #2...2006 MVP should have been Kobe Bryant...

 

[houheffna]

Of course, Kobe had the luxury of winning 3 titles as a Robin. After winning titles because you were paired with the most dominant player in the NBA at the time (Shaq), he wanted to win 1 as the guy. So he sacrified winning by having the Lakers send Phil and Shaq on their way. Then he demanded a trade until Memphis gift-wrapped Gasol.

Lebron never had that luxury. He wasn't blessed with Shaq in his prime. He was stuck with Mo Williams and has-beens like Jamison. He still won 60+ and brought his band of losers to a Finals. Now we'll see what he can do with some real talent.

Shaq had the benefit of having Kobe Bryant also...lets not kid ourselves here...

The second part of that paragraph has been refuted by Shaq himself. And if Phil was pushed out by Kobe, that is news to me.

I have no argument with your statements about Lebron...you pretty much repeated what I said...but I will say this...that is Wade's team.

 

[houheffna]

Except of course on May 31, 2007, when he wanted to join what was regarded as the best young team in the league at the time, the Chicago Bulls:

5.31.2007
First, Bryant said on 1050 ESPN Radio in New York: "I would like to be traded, yeah. Tough as it is to come to that conclusion there's no other alternative, you know?"

Bryant, interviewed by Stephen A. Smith, was asked if there was anything the Lakers could do to change his mind.

"No," Bryant said. "I just want them to do the right thing."

"[The Lakers] obviously want to move in a different direction in terms of rebuilding," Bryant said, adding he could have opted to sign with the Los Angeles Clippers or Chicago Bulls instead. "Three years ago when I was re-signing they should have told me they wanted to rebuild."

Asked if he had any preference for a trade destination, he said "At this point I'll go play on Pluto."

Is this some new phenomenon? I can understand why Lebron and Kobe wanted to leave their respective teams. I am sorry you did all of this research for nothing but quoting him asking to be traded has nothing to do with his desire to win or wanting to be the man. The Bulls were mediocre, the best young team in the league was the Cavs, because of Lebron. Kobe was impressed with the Bulls presentation to him a few years earlier and has talked about them in a complimentary fashion ever since. There is a long list of players who demanded to be traded to get rings...that is not new, I don't quite understand what that has to do with Kobe's desire to be the greatest of all time...

 

[Shakes]

Here's a stat that should end any trumpeting of Kobe's playoff record as putting him ahead of LeBron: Kobe is 6-4 the last two years when he's shot 40% or less in the playoffs. LeBron is 0-5.

It's a bit easier to have playoff success when you have team mates who can win when you have a bad game.

 

[houheffna]

Here's a stat that should end any trumpeting of Kobe's playoff record as putting him ahead of LeBron: Kobe is 6-4 the last two years when he's shot 40% or less in the playoffs. LeBron is 0-5.

It's a bit easier to have playoff success when you have team mates who can win when you have a bad game.

That's great...tell Michael Jordan that.

I have said that Lebron was the best in the league...continuously.

I think he and Kobe are looking at different goals. Lebron wants championships. Kobe wants to be the greatest player to ever play the game...and championships. Jordan set the bar high, and Kobe has done a damn good job of making an attempt at the top, despite people trying to place lofty goals (he has to win x amount of titles and x final mvps...) on him that was not even placed on Jordan himself.

If Kobe beats that Heat trio, he deserves to be considered one of the greatest of the greats.