Leaguewide, what is the deepest position in the NBA?

[RamiTheBullsFan]

He's not even a PF...which is to say, he's not a 4. He never was. He moves and plays like a C. He never had the mobility to guard 4s like Malone and so on.

That's not true.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

That's not true.

he's not as mobile as some 4s..but he's being a bit hyperbolic

This argument is getting ridiculous. Is Duncan a PF or a C? The answer is yes. Same with Gasol, same with Jefferson, and several other players as well. Heck, even Noah could be a PF (albeit one with no outside game to speak of) technically. These days the line between PF and C is getting thinner and thinner. You don't have the dominant centers like Ewing, Shaq, Olajuwon, and Robinson anymore. All we really have is Howard. Thus a lot of guys who really would be 4s have to play the 5 and as such the definition of a center has changed a bit.

Even wikipedia has changed it's definition of a center to reflect this.

this is basically my argument lol...the only thing im arguing is lex's assertion that he's never been a PF...

i've said countless times he's a C-F because thats what he is...

btw, nice post

 

[Lex L.]

That's not true.

It is true. Duncan is a C.

 

[Lex L.]

because he was a matchup problem?(am i reading this right) he was a matchup problem regardless if he was at the 4 or 5

i think a key thing we're missing here is that tim duncan isnt/wasnt the most mobile big but he was great maneveuring with the ball and passing

and you still are severely underrating tim duncan's midrange game

the thing about tim was that he basically dared power forwards to create from the perimeter..he shut down the post area and you're right in some regard the team D compensated but he was mobile enough to stop a power forward from driving or making any move inside..he also compensated for his shorthand in mobility with his length

also tim duncan didnt always defend 4s...much like you said that people shouldnt be hardwired to think of a lineup by 1-5, we shouldnt think of players always matching up with their counterpart position ....duncan at times matched up defensively with the best post player(whether it be the 4 or 5..this was less true during the robinson days)

i'm not arguing that duncan isnt a center or doesnt have center qualities...i'm arguing against the idea that tim duncan has never been a power forward when that has been his essential position until the last couple of years

tim duncan was originally a PF because they had robinson at center...he stayed at PF partly because he had become adept to the position

you could make the argument that duncan may have originally been a center but adapted his game accordingly..by the time robinson had left he wasnt playing out of position

clone said it well....there's a certain line of opinion and subjectivity when it comes to this..and there's a certain interchangability with the 4 and 5 in some aspects....especially today

so is duncan a center? or is he a forward?

neither...he's both

He's a center. As I mentioned previously, just because someone has to guard the other team's 4 and it's him, that doesnt make him a 4. Duncan is a center. His style of play is that of a center.

 

[clonetrooper264]

He's a center. As I mentioned previously, just because someone has to guard the other team's 4 and it's him, that doesnt make him a 4. Duncan is a center. His style of play is that of a center.

Idk if you said it before, but just curious, what is your definition of a PF and your definition of a C? What's the defining difference between the two?

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

He's a center. As I mentioned previously, just because someone has to guard the other team's 4 and it's him, that doesnt make him a 4. Duncan is a center. His style of play is that of a center.

we're just arguing in circles here..yes duncan is a center..but that doesnt mean he isnt a forward as well...

he's a center forward..a less mobile, more post oriented power forward...but more mobile and has more perimeter skills than a true center(there are very few of these left)

also, as mentioned there's a certain interchangability between the 4 and 5...there are guys that can be classified as both..and guys that can play both technical positions

 

[clonetrooper264]

also, as mentioned there's a certain interchangability between the 4 and 5...there are guys that can be classified as both..and guys that can play both technical positions

That same kind of interchangeability is not uncommon in basketball. There's those combo guards (the PG/SG mixture), swingmen (SG/SF), and point forwards. Very few players are truly restricted to only one position that they can play.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

That same kind of interchangeability is not uncommon in basketball. There's those combo guards (the PG/SG mixture), swingmen (SG/SF), and point forwards. Very few players are truly restricted to only one position that they can play.

ding ding ding

 

[Lex L.]

we're just arguing in circles here..yes duncan is a center..but that doesnt mean he isnt a forward as well...

he's a center forward..a less mobile, more post oriented power forward...but more mobile and has more perimeter skills than a true center(there are very few of these left)

also, as mentioned there's a certain interchangability between the 4 and 5...there are guys that can be classified as both..and guys that can play both technical positions

Not really. He's a C.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

Not really. He's a C.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Idk if you said it before, but just curious, what is your definition of a PF and your definition of a C? What's the defining difference between the two?

Not really. He's a C.

May I redirect your attention to the question above?

 

[Lex L.]

Idk if you said it before, but just curious, what is your definition of a PF and your definition of a C? What's the defining difference between the two?

Alright. A good rule of thumb is whether or not someone is capable of guarding one position down. So, let's say if Duncan is a true PF, he should be able to guard some/many SFs. He simply can't. He would actually struggle against a lot of the better real PFs, like Karl Malone, who was a true PF.

But, as I referenced before. Some teams adhere to an offense that isn't 1,2,3,4,and 5. Alternatively, there is also a PG, W, W, C, C. This is what applies to Duncan, at least if you want to call him a PF. Because in that case, he's really another C. And the fact that PG, W, W, C, C teams face teams that are 1,2,3,4,5 and someone has to guard 4s, that doesnt make the guy guarding a 4 a center.

Duncan's a center by virtue of his style of play. He's not a PF.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Alright. A good rule of thumb is whether or not someone is capable of guarding one position down. So, let's say if Duncan is a true PF, he should be able to guard some/many SFs. He simply can't. He would actually struggle against a lot of the better real PFs, like Karl Malone, who was a true PF.

But, as I referenced before. Some teams adhere to an offense that isn't 1,2,3,4,and 5. Alternatively, there is also a PG, W, W, C, C. This is what applies to Duncan, at least if you want to call him a PF. Because in that case, he's really another C. And the fact that PG, W, W, C, C teams face teams that are 1,2,3,4,5 and someone has to guard 4s, that doesnt make the guy guarding a 4 a center.

Duncan's a center by virtue of his style of play. He's not a PF.

So SG's have to be able to guard PGs and so forth? Interesting...

Imo having a PF like Malone trying to guard a SF like say...Pippen would be an absolute failure. Likewise McGrady trying to guard Tim Hardaway or Gary Payton wouldn't work so well either. In general, I've seen that 3s are often much quicker than 4s so that kind of logic fails to click with me. If anything, I'd want the player to be guard a position up.

I will agree with you kinda on the whole PG, W, W, C, C thing assuming you mean W means wing and C means center. The change I would make is making the C a P for post. Like I've said before, there's a lack of centers in the NBA right now and a lot of 4s now have to play the center position for stretches, or even whole games.

 

[Lex L.]

So SG's have to be able to guard PGs and so forth? Interesting...

Imo having a PF like Malone trying to guard a SF like say...Pippen would be an absolute failure. Likewise McGrady trying to guard Tim Hardaway or Gary Payton wouldn't work so well either. In general, I've seen that 3s are often much quicker than 4s so that kind of logic fails to click with me. If anything, I'd want the player to be guard a position up.

I will agree with you kinda on the whole PG, W, W, C, C thing assuming you mean W means wing and C means center. The change I would make is making the C a P for post. Like I've said before, there's a lack of centers in the NBA right now and a lot of 4s now have to play the center position for stretches, or even whole games.

It's not an absolute. Not every PF can cover LeBron James. Practically none can. Again, it's not an absolute. Nevertheless, Duncan's not even there within the range of average.

 

[clonetrooper264]

It's not an absolute. Not every PF can cover LeBron James. Practically none can. Again, it's not an absolute. Nevertheless, Duncan's not even there within the range of average.

Fair statement, but imo guarding a position up would be more feasible than trying to guard a position down. Sure Duncan couldn't sniff trying to guard a SF, but imo few PFs can. Maybe guys like Garnett and Rodman who were just great defenders in general could step out on the perimeter and have the footspeed to guard a wing player, but I doubt players like Paul Milsap or Brandon Bass could even come close to having success against even Luol Deng who can't do much off the dribble.

And I must ask again, what defines a PF and what defines a center if that criteria isn't absolute?

 

[Lex L.]

Fair statement, but imo guarding a position up would be more feasible than trying to guard a position down. Sure Duncan couldn't sniff trying to guard a SF, but imo few PFs can. Maybe guys like Garnett and Rodman who were just great defenders in general could step out on the perimeter and have the footspeed to guard a wing player, but I doubt players like Paul Milsap or Brandon Bass could even come close to having success against even Luol Deng who can't do much off the dribble.

And I must ask again, what defines a PF and what defines a center if that criteria isn't absolute?

Once again, part of that made things work for Duncan was team defense. He had help and, to his credit, he funneled his man to his help. This is how team defense works and how team defense compensates for individual shorcomings. This involves scenarios where he was covering a PF.

And, like I said, due to the fact that Duncan was so proficient around the basket on offense (again, he was a C), he had a greater advantage over the guys guarding him than they had over him when he had to guard them. Duncan's game was played closer to the basket and it was higher percentage. Duncan is/was a slow plodding technician. It's not like he was/is super athletic. He can't/couldn't be taken away from the basket without a lot of help.

Once again, Ill answer this by using a rule of thumb. If someone is a true PF, he should be able to guard an average SF without being totally abused. A true PF should also be able to have a chance at defending an average C. Duncan was/is an immobile PF but a mobile C. Not only that but the characteristics of his game were that of a C.

 

[bleacherbum54]

Wings there are a shit ton of good ones.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Wings there are a shit ton of good ones.

Especially at BDubs. :elephant:

 

[clonetrooper264]

Once again, part of that made things work for Duncan was team defense. He had help and, to his credit, he funneled his man to his help. This is how team defense works and how team defense compensates for individual shorcomings. This involves scenarios where he was covering a PF.

And, like I said, due to the fact that Duncan was so proficient around the basket on offense (again, he was a C), he had a greater advantage over the guys guarding him than they had over him when he had to guard them. Duncan's game was played closer to the basket and it was higher percentage. Duncan is/was a slow plodding technician. It's not like he was/is super athletic. He can't/couldn't be taken away from the basket without a lot of help.

Once again, Ill answer this by using a rule of thumb. If someone is a true PF, he should be able to guard an average SF without being totally abused. A true PF should also be able to have a chance at defending an average C. Duncan was/is an immobile PF but a mobile C. Not only that but the characteristics of his game were that of a C.

How does Dirk fit into that mold then? Imo he probably wouldn't do so hot against SFs. Granted, he would do better than Duncan because he's a bit quicker, but on the whole Duncan is probably the better man defender. I guess there are always exceptions to the rule if you want to look at it that way. There are those that fit that rule pretty well (Garnett, Gibson, Haslem) and some that don't fit as well (Gasol, Duncan, Dirk, Al Jefferson) who by your standards have to be put into the center category in spite of their actual position.

For the record, I feel like the biggest difference between PF and C is usually the flat out size of the player. In most cases, the center is the tallest and biggest player on a team. Again, there are exceptions (Chuck Hayes is a big one). Skillwise the center usually has no game away from like 10 ft from the basket. The best centers that I can think of were actually those with a midrange jumper (Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson, etc) rather than just pure physical domination inside ala Wilt and Shaq. I'm thinking here is where you'll say that Duncan and Gasol are centers since they have that great post game, but also a pretty good midrage jumper. But for the most part, when you think center, you get guys like Chandler, Haywood, and the like who have no true outside of the paint game and are huge or very tall players. Maybe that's a poor definition, but like I said several posts ago, the defining line between a power forward and a center is becoming increasingly subjective.

 

[clonetrooper264]

I find this page to be very relevant to this whole seemingly roundabout debate.

Forward-Center - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia