Bearshomer
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Brady folds under any pressure. He would die behind this line.
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First, I never said Bellichek would be nothing without Brady that was other posters. However, it is not disingenuous. I don't agree with it but the simple fact is he has never had much success without Brady going back to his Cleveland days. So any statement regarding Bellichek without Brady or Lovie with Brady is highly speculative.
Bellichek without Brady looks a lot like Lovie to me ie a pretty good defensive minded coach who without an offense to support that defense would not have won as much as he did. Even with Drew Bledsoe who is a shit ton better than anyone Lovie ever had at QB pre-Cutler, the Pats didn't look like perennial Super Bowl contenders.
So frankly I think there is more evidence that Bellichek needed Brady more than Brady needed Bellichek. And you ignored the question. If Brady was on the 2006 team, do you think we beat the Colts? Simple question.
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It is a well known fact that Batman and Robin are big Chicago Bears sports fans. They hang out in a cave afterall.
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Yeah, I think it's safe to say Brady would have been an upgrade over Grossman but, then again, 90% of the quarterbacks in the league would have been.
Part of a coach's job is assessing talent and finding the right talent to fit his system. Who do you think drafted Brady in the first place when nobody else wanted him?
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Kind of an answer lacking historical perspective. Belichick had built that team into a SB contender before Modell pulled the rug out and basically killed the 1995 season. There was a lot of stuff swirling around that Cleveland team during his time there.
You last question is terrible. Does Brady get a chance to grow into the QB he is if he's in Chicago? If Brady was allowed to develop in NE and then magically transport to the bears before the 2006 SB..then yeah the Bears have a great shot at winning. Better than they did with Rex? Of course. But also keep this in mind..since New England has handed the keys to Brady and he's become statistically dominant....New England hasn't won a Super Bowl. New England hasn't won a title since Bellichick's defenses were leading the way.
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lol... I was gonna say knocking a coach for playing great players in a system that fits them perfectly.... I mean, is that now a point of criticism for a coach?
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I say this, If Bledsoe didn't get hurt would Brady be the player he is today? I doubt it! Bledsoe was good with the pats before Brady came in.
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Umm he got drafted in the 6th round which means he was not that highly thought of by the Patriots either. It was a lottery ticket type pick not evidence of some great genius.
So you are saying Lovie got a team to the SB with a QB he inherited that was one of the worst starting QBs?
EL ROCKSTEADY
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My favorite teams
Lovie is a damn good coach and was a major upgrade with what we had b4. His failure of managment in getting the right people for the offense among other things is the reason he got fired. I could easily see him winning the Super Bowl if he gets the right people for his offense where ever he goes. I for eff sake, we went to the Super Bowl with Grossman. Lovie being on the hot seat might have affected in the way that for the tail end of his tenure, the only course of action he had was to find quick fixes for offensive coordinator destroying any potential for continuity. With a clean slate he will do fine.
jc456
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Lovie Smith was and is a defensive coordinator who took on the role of a HC. He never fulfilled the entire package of a HC. No one I doubt woulld question his defensive credentials, but his ability to merge three major aspects of a football team into one cohesive unit failed over nine years. He either had a good special teams year or a good defensive year, and never, never,....never ever had any offense. Failure as HC. To be successful he needed the third piece which he didn't care about. He gave it no thought IMO. he was "Disingenuous" with the offense. Good coach? yeah probably. Good HC? absolutely not!
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Umm, Bellichick had him on his radar and knew there was good reason he wasn't on anybody elses radar. He got him and then you want to say he's a lesser coach cause he did, or because he didn't use a higher pick on him? You're getting ridiculous.
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Lovie was named after his aunt "Lovetta"..They were saving that name if Lovie was born a girl. When Lovie was born a male, they altered the name to honor his aunt. Most Bear fans have heard this story many times already
jc456
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BTW, the best thing he ever did was let Devin Hester run back kicks and punts. Lovie was so obsessed with Hester he ruined him. One player was the man's career IMO!
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I don't know about defensive genius but this sounds a lot like Lovie. Lovie turned the St Louis Rams into the 3rd ranked defense. And he took over a team in Chicago that despite being in the 2nd largest media market has been pretty bad since their success in the mid to late 80s. And as I said, Brady started out as a smart game manager which a defensive coach like Bellichek used to his advantage. That is precisely what a defensive coach like Lovie could have used as well.
And Lovie built the Bears into a SB contender with Rex Grossman so again not sure how he was any different than Bellichek in that regard. If you count the post-season appearences in the 10 years prior to Bellichek in Cleveland and Lovie in Chicago, I think the Browns actually had more success than the Bears prior to those guys taking over.
And my last question is not terrible. I think Brady would have developed into Tom Brady regardless of where he was drafted. And what you are telling me is that the great defensive genius with an all time great QB has failed to win a Super Bowl in recent times because his defenses have been pretty mediocre. Bellichek is a defensive guru. Any failure in the defense to pull their weight when he has Tom Brady leading a record breaking offense is entirely Bellichek's fault. Why can't he draft and develop better players on defense?
Do you find it odd that from the time Lovie has coached the Bears his defenses have fared better than the defensive genius Bellichek? I agree, early on, Bellichek matched good defense with a good game manager QB. However, while the offense has taken off, his defenses have regressed. Lovie's defenses have been pretty consistent so I can only imagine he would have been fine with Brady and don't buy into this notion that Brady only developed into Brady because of his Defensive Minded Head Coach as if Bellichek was ever considered a QB guru prior to Brady. I guess he was hiding his QB development genius all those years prior to Brady? Doubtful.
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No. I am saying Bellichek is not a prophet or psychic. If he really thought Brady was a HOF caliber QB, he would not have just let 5 rounds pass by and just rely on his psychic ability to predict that no other team would draft him before the 6th Round. He got lucky with Brady plain and simple. It's ridiculous that you think in his heart of hearts Bellichek just knew that not one of the 31 other teams would take a flyer on Brady.
And Bellichek is still a great coach. I am not disputing that. The OP's post seems to suggest that Lovie is the only guy who benefited from great players when it is pretty damn clear Bellichek needed great players too.
As I said, Bellichek was never known as an offfensive coach or QB guru. Trying to pretend he is the reason Brady developed the way he did is a stretch. Provide me any evidence prior to Brady that Bellichek had a rep as having a good eye for QB talent. He was a defensive guru and to his credit the first two Super Bowls, his defenses particularly against the Rams are what won the day while Brady managed the game effecitvely and made big plays when it mattered. However, since then he has not been able to maintain a defense to go along with the Offense that Brady has led.
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Did Bellichek even draft Brady? I don't believe he was responsible for the pick, not sure though.
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Except that Bellichik has won Super Bowls...what do you mean you aren't sure how that's different than BB?
What does that have to do with anything? The season before BB took over Cleveland the Browns were 3-13. The Bears were 7-9 in Jauron's last season. But yeas, I'm sure 1981 and 1993 are far more relevant to the talent on the teams then the season directly before them.
:andruw:
So Brady goes to a team with a shitty defense, a bad coach, and no veteran to learn the game from has to start right away and you think he'd turn out the same?
Got it.
:andruw:
What in the hell are you talking about? Since the Patriots last SB win they have had two seasons ranked outside the Top 10 in scoring defense. BB is still putting upper tier defenses on the field on a yearly basis.
Except, they really haven't.
Here are Lovie's defensive ranks(scoring wise)
13, 1, 3, 16, 16, 21, 4, 14, 3(Avg rank of 10.1)
BB's
17,6,17, 1,2,17,2,4,8,5,8,15,9(Avg rank of 8.5)
Umm..see above.
Ummm...yeah..consistently ranked behind BB's.
Stats> you.
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Brady was selected with pick #199, a compensatory pick, in the sixth round of the 2000 NFL Draft. According to Michael Holley's book Patriot Reign, the Patriots were considering Brady and Tim Rattay, both of whom had received positive reviews from then-quarterbacks coach Dick Rehbein. Ultimately, the Patriots front office chose Brady. Considering his later achievements, many analysts have called Brady the best NFL draft pick of all time.
http://www.chicitysports.com/forum/showthread.php/31249-Bears-Request-Interview-with-Bruce-Arians
Right so despite knowing Brady would be an all-time great QB, the Pats were considering Tim Rattay as well. Let me guess, if the Pats had taken Rattay then he would have gone on to win 3 Super Bowls because that great defensive coach Bellichek would have developed him into an all time great QB too.
Please people, get a grip. They took a flyer on a QB they probably thought was a long shot to make the team much less turn into an all-time great QB and just happened to get extremely lucky. If people are going to say Lovie was overrated because he had great players then so is Bellichek.
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Thread is Special person. Only fools engage with FT and Rory on topics such as who made whom... Brady or Beli...!? Its a subject that by nature will have no clear answer as their football relationship is so reciprocal. The best you can say is each made the other better.
To sit a debate who contributed more in that relationship with a couple of trolls is just self flagellation.
To sit a debate who contributed more in that relationship with a couple of trolls is just self flagellation.
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yes, I've heard him talk about why he did and what, exactly, it was that he saw in him.
