Mid-season thoughts

[knoxville7]

@ Cone, not going to do the giant quote for obvious reasons.

I am not sure Noah and Gasol can't play together. THey have been using Noah on the outside to set the screen to often. I think Noah needs to subjective his game and go back to the way he used to play. Stay around the basket, get O rebounds, garbage buckets. Gasol should be on the perimeter more. I think the scheme that Thibs is running is highly flawed.

I don't think the Bulls have a high change of making out of the East without a wing move. I am not sure if that move is Mirotic, or someone on a different team. If Dunleavy is critical to winning regular season games the Bulls are going to be in trouble in the playoffs. The Bulls need another wing that can shoot. If they don't find one good teams will force the Bulls into jumpshoots and the Bulls just won't hit enough.


The Bulls are 19th in FG%. They were 20th for a bit. In the last 5 years, as far as I went back, no team was that low and even made it to the finals. In the playoffs you have to make shoots. The refs are not going to bail you out with whistles late in the game and put you on the line.

The Bulls defense has not been nearly as good in the past.

I think only time will tell on Butler, but last I checked he is human. Thibs seems like a person who does not care about the limits of humans.

ive been saying they need wing help for a while now, especially a wing player that can play defense and help alleviate some of jimmys minutes. i suggested they try and trade snell and a first rounder to Phoenix for Gerald green and everyone flipped out on me
:thinking:

 

[ChiSoxCity]

You don't think the Bulls are championship caliber because we have lost to those teams multiple times this year and think the window is basically closed...correct me if I'm wrong.

That being said, I want your thoughts on 2010-11. We beat Miami 4-0 in the regular season then blew them out game 1 in the ECF. We still got our asses handed to us.

That would be simplistic of me to base my impressions solely on winning and losing. How they're playing and the health/attitude of the team is much more important. Their defense has been barely adequate, and their shooting percentage is dismal. That spells disaster for a team that used to win game by holding their opponents to 91 ppg. They're giving up close to 100 ppg now, and unless Gasol or Butler score in the 30s+ consistently, that's not winning basketball. This is no knee jerk reaction on my part. I've been talking about these fundamental problems with the Bulls for years now. The popular theory seems to be that the Bulls are a championship caliber squad because broadcasters say it all the time on tv year after year. There have simply been too many fundamental problems with the roster to make that distinction (by broadcasters and prognosticators) an accurate one for the Bulls.


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[czman]

ive been saying they need wing help for a while now, especially a wing player that can play defense and help alleviate some of jimmys minutes. i suggested they try and trade snell and a first rounder to Phoenix for Gerald green and everyone flipped out on me
:thinking:

The Suns would not do that trade. It is a bad trade for them. That trade is a steal for the Bulls. If you are going to suggest a trade it should at least be somewhat realistic.

 

[knoxville7]

The Suns would not do that trade. It is a bad trade for them. That trade is a steal for the Bulls. If you are going to suggest a trade it should at least be somewhat realistic.

why wouldn't the suns do it?

i ask because the overwhelming majority of people on here said they wouldn't want the bulls to make that trade even

 

[czman]

That hole in our interior defense leaves us vulnerable to every team in the NBA. This losing streak, and the recent poor play are manifestations of this problem with the roster. You obviously don't disagree with what I'm saying, but you seem to think nothing can or will be done about it in regards to next season.

The defense is not all Noah. Butler has been going for to many steal cheating too much. He has been giving up open jump shots fat too often. Yes he is getting some steals, but giving up 4 open 3 to get 2 fast break dunks is not good basketball. He has also been getting beat off the dribble a lot more.

I don't know if it is fatigue.

I honestly think the Bulls have become a little deaf to Thibs and his message. We just don't see the same energy from the team. Part if it is injury and fatigue. I think part of it is mental fatigue from the grind that is Thibs.

 

[czman]

why wouldn't the suns do it?

i ask because the overwhelming majority of people on here said they wouldn't want the bulls to make that trade even

The Suns are under the cap and have he is their best FA. They don't have enough cap space to let him go and replace him. They have bird rights on him. If they resign him they still have the midlevel, all they would have anyway to add another player. It makes no sense for them to let him go. He is not going to cost a ton.

Why would they let him go? They can keep him and still have the exact same amount to spend on FA. Where is the benefit. Snell?? A late first round pick???

That is a terrible deal for the Suns.

I am not sure, but I thought you wanted to Move Mcdermott for Green. I think people didn't like that deal because the Bulls may not have the money to resign Green and McDermott is cost controlled for years.

 

[The Hawk]

What they need in the play-offs is a healthy Noah for sure and another good big guard who can score and defend.

 

[knoxville7]

The Suns are under the cap and have he is their best FA. They don't have enough cap space to let him go and replace him. They have bird rights on him. If they resign him they still have the midlevel, all they would have anyway to add another player. It makes no sense for them to let him go. He is not going to cost a ton.

Why would they let him go? They can keep him and still have the exact same amount to spend on FA. Where is the benefit. Snell?? A late first round pick???

That is a terrible deal for the Suns.

I am not sure, but I thought you wanted to Move Mcdermott for Green. I think people didn't like that deal because the Bulls may not have the money to resign Green and McDermott is cost controlled for years.

i guess it comes down to how the suns view green, which was the premise of that previous thread to begin with. and if it took McDermott to get green id probably still make the deal IMO(and i know everyone will bash that idea). if you view the bulls as true contenders(as i do), then adding a player like green could very well be the missing piece to it. but i also don't think as highly of mcd as everyone else on here does(and i could be wrong, time will tell)

 

[knoxville7]

What they need in the play-offs is a healthy Noah for sure and another good big guard who can score and defend.

Gerald green is 6-8 and 210...just saying lol

 

[knoxville7]

http://www.kpopstarz.com/articles/1...reen-chicago-bulls-phoenix-suns-resurgent.htm

theres an article that explains the thinking for both teams and why they do the trade. doesn't involve mcd either

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Typical pessimistic Chicago fans who start flipping out the second things are not perfect.

Truly a bunch of spoiled people from the Jordan/Pippen/Jackson era. If you keep comparing everything to that, you're ALWAYS going to be disappointed.

Rose: Coming back into form.

Noah: Has a chance to gain strength in his knee and come back into form (they need him).

Gasol: Is an all-star STARTER! Jesus Christ man. Some of you people complaining are the exact same one who said the Bulls should fire everybody when we "missed out" on Melo.

Brooks: Good signing.

Hinrich: Probably plays too much but it's better than giving extra minutes to Butler.

Mirotic: Rookie of the Year candidate.

Butler: Most improved player, hands-down. Should be an all-star reserve.

Thibodeau: Some of you people really think Thibs is the problem? I'm not saying he's perfect, because he damn sure isn't. But if you think losing him is going to help this team, you are wrong. He's one of the better coaches in the NBA. There is nobody out there who would be better suited to coach this team than Thibs.

Chicago Bulls team overall: both small forwards and Noah are out right now. They just lost two games to a VERY good Wizards team and another to a team that has won 24 of their last 26. The Hawks are great at creating and minimizing their own turnovers; The Bulls suck at that (right now). Calm. The Hell. Down. This team not too long ago won 10 of 11 games with Rose playing very inconsistently and Noah playing below average as a starting center. They are 27-15 overall and you are calling for trades/Thibs+FO jobs?

Great a grip on reality. This team can win the East. Getting rid of core players and management is truly going to hinder- not help.

 

[czman]

http://www.kpopstarz.com/articles/1...reen-chicago-bulls-phoenix-suns-resurgent.htm

theres an article that explains the thinking for both teams and why they do the trade. doesn't involve mcd either

Firstly, You are using the word "article" loosely. The Suns are not going to trade Green for Snell, Mohammed and a the Sac pick that may end up as a 2nd rounder. Thinking they would is silly.

Secondly, you do not need to bring this idea up in every thread. This thread was not about that. You can revive your thread if you want to keep that discussion going.

Thirdly, McDermott has value as a cost controlled player and the Bulls are in a completely different cap situation so they may not be able to resign Green.

 

[czman]

Typical pessimistic Chicago fans who start flipping out the second things are not perfect.

Truly a bunch of spoiled people from the Jordan/Pippen/Jackson era. If you keep comparing everything to that, you're ALWAYS going to be disappointed.

You do realize you can only do a mid season review at the mid season point right.

Rose: Coming back into form.

Noah: Has a chance to gain strength in his knee and come back into form (they need him).

Gasol: Is an all-star STARTER! Jesus Christ man. Some of you people complaining are the exact same one who said the Bulls should fire everybody when we "missed out" on Melo.

Brooks: Good signing.

Hinrich: Probably plays too much but it's better than giving extra minutes to Butler.

Mirotic: Rookie of the Year candidate.

Butler: Most improved player, hands-down. Should be an all-star reserve.

All true. That does not make them good enough to win it all though. Are the Bulls trying to be a very good team or a championship team. There is fast room for improvement on this team. No where in anything that I typed it state that all hope was lost or the Bulls needed a complete rebuild.

Thibodeau: Some of you people really think Thibs is the problem? I'm not saying he's perfect, because he damn sure isn't. But if you think losing him is going to help this team, you are wrong. He's one of the better coaches in the NBA. There is nobody out there who would be better suited to coach this team than Thibs.

Chicago Bulls team overall: both small forwards and Noah are out right now. They just lost two games to a VERY good Wizards team and another to a team that has won 24 of their last 26. The Hawks are great at creating and minimizing their own turnovers; The Bulls suck at that (right now). Calm. The Hell. Down. This team not too long ago won 10 of 11 games with Rose playing very inconsistently and Noah playing below average as a starting center. They are 27-15 overall and you are calling for trades/Thibs+FO jobs?

Great a grip on reality. This team can win the East. Getting rid of core players and management is truly going to hinder- not help.

I never said the Bulls would be better without Thibs. The question is can the Bulls win a ring with Thibs. This is built for Thibs. A new coach would want different player and the team would be different. There are better coaches. Thibs will keep the Bulls in the playoffs. Unless he modifies how he coaches, I don't think the Bulls will ever win it all with him. Better minute distribution and more input form other sources is needed.

Just about everyone at every job need to grow to continue to get better. Thibs is no different. If he is still coaching the same way in year 5 as year 1 then that is a failure on him. Everyone has room to improve. The question about Thibs has been does he want to change and is he willing to.

 

[ChiSoxCity]

The defense is not all Noah. Butler has been going for to many steal cheating too much. He has been giving up open jump shots fat too often. Yes he is getting some steals, but giving up 4 open 3 to get 2 fast break dunks is not good basketball. He has also been getting beat off the dribble a lot more.

I don't know if it is fatigue.

I honestly think the Bulls have become a little deaf to Thibs and his message. We just don't see the same energy from the team. Part if it is injury and fatigue. I think part of it is mental fatigue from the grind that is Thibs.

C'mon man, I'm not saying the defense is all Noah. Pay attention, ok? These things are interrelated: one problem makes all the other problems worse. Noah's poor play and health leaves a hole in our INTERIOR DEFENSE, with no replacement. This in turn makes everyone else's assignments more difficult. He is virtually useless offensively, which creates a whole other set of problems (turnovers, squandered scoring opportunities, bouts of poor offensive rebounding, etc.). The Bulls are a better offensive team with Noah on the bench. In fact, having Taj, Mirotic and Pau on the court makes a better starting squad for the Bulls, as has been suggested by many others.


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[clonetrooper264]

hmmm and yet about a week or so ago when i brought up acquiring a defensive wing player to help ease jimmys minutes, you and a few others bashed the idea. and here we are a week later with you finally coming to that very conclusion. don't worry i wont expect an apology, more likely youll try and deny every disagreeing with the idea in the first place lol

The idea wasn't bashed, it was the player you suggested and even more specifically it was the trade you specified more than just the player. You trade Snell and junk for Gerald Green, I'm all aboard. That's an improvement. The only thing is there's no real reason for Phoenix to make that trade. Gerald Green is more an offensive wing than a defensive wing anyway, for whatever that's worth.

For those curious, I disagreed that Gerald Green puts us over the top for a championship. I brought up Afflalo as a guy who I thought could put us over the top instead while admitting that Gerald Green was definitely the easier player to acquire because of salaries.

And at what point did I say "we should bring a defensive wing to ease Jimmy's minutes" in my post? What I said was that we don't know the reason for his poor play for sure. Fatigue is a possibility, but he could just be in a shooting slump. It happens. Never at any point in my post did I suggest bringing in another player was THE answer...in fact I never brought up that idea at all, so I don't know how I came to that conclusion.

 

[clonetrooper264]

How are they the favorite in the east after playing so poorly against Atlanta and Washington? Atlanta is flat out a better team than the Bulls, and Washington is a matchup nightmare. Either one of these teams would make short work of the Bulls in a playoff series. I'm not confident they match up well with the Cavs either.


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I said they're THE favorite? I guess I can't read my own thoughts.

Please continue to cry me a river about how much this team is washed up

 

[czman]

C'mon man, I'm not saying the defense is all Noah. Pay attention, ok? These things are interrelated: one problem makes all the other problems worse. Noah's poor play and health leaves a hole in our INTERIOR DEFENSE, with no replacement. This in turn makes everyone else's assignments more difficult. He is virtually useless offensively, which creates a whole other set of problems (turnovers, squandered scoring opportunities, bouts of poor offensive rebounding, etc.). The Bulls are a better offensive team with Noah on the bench. In fact, having Taj, Mirotic and Pau on the court makes a better starting squad for the Bulls, as has been suggested by many others.


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I went over that in the OP. Noah has plummeted from last season to this one. He may be the best trade asset the Bulls have. I know he is a leader on this team, but if the right move comes along it might be time to move him. I am not sure Noah has not been run into the ground. Deng was run into the ground and has still not recovered. There comes a point where players start to break down, and Noah may have hit it.

 

[ChiSoxCity]

Having Kirk still on this team is a testament to GarPax's lack of vision. They had the opportunity to replace him via trade or thru the draft, but chose to bring him back instead. He's clearly past his prime and contributes very little to the team.


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[clonetrooper264]

@ Cone, not going to do the giant quote for obvious reasons.

I am not sure Noah and Gasol can't play together. THey have been using Noah on the outside to set the screen to often. I think Noah needs to subjective his game and go back to the way he used to play. Stay around the basket, get O rebounds, garbage buckets. Gasol should be on the perimeter more. I think the scheme that Thibs is running is highly flawed.

That could work too. In any case, whatever they are doing with them now is not working. I think Pau as the screener would work a lot better too. If you somehow inception'd Thibs into doing what you proposed, that'd be fine with me too.

I don't think the Bulls have a high change of making out of the East without a wing move. I am not sure if that move is Mirotic, or someone on a different team. If Dunleavy is critical to winning regular season games the Bulls are going to be in trouble in the playoffs. The Bulls need another wing that can shoot. If they don't find one good teams will force the Bulls into jumpshoots and the Bulls just won't hit enough.

The Bulls are 19th in FG%. They were 20th for a bit. In the last 5 years, as far as I went back, no team was that low and even made it to the finals. In the playoffs you have to make shoots. The refs are not going to bail you out with whistles late in the game and put you on the line.

This is I guess dependent on how confident you feel about this group of players. I think the general feel of this board is a little on the negative side (ie we're always one piece away from being "real" contenders). I still think this group has a shot if fully healthy. Or maybe it's just because I know we're probably not going to get anyone major anyway, so I don't bother myself with that what if scenario. Perhaps that makes me an unrealistic or idealistic homer...oh well.

I completely agree that you have to make jump shots as a team to win...every team will try to force the other into shooting jumpers. And while the Bulls are 19th in FG%, they are tied for 8th in 3pt% (12th in makes, 16th in attempts) so it's not like every jump shot is a brick. The Bulls definitely have benefited from foul calls as they are 2nd in both makes and attempts, at over 20 per game, a number that will surely drop in the playoffs. I agree they can't rely on the refs to bail them out, but I think they get fouls because of their improved post game between Pau and Butler, something that can be sustained in a playoff series.

As a side note, I'm curious as to what that 2006 Dallas team ranked offensively the year they won. I imagine they were pretty good, but not sure they were Miami or San Antonio good.

 

[czman]

2005-2006 Dallas was 6th. I am sure there have been some teams in the bottom 15. I am not sure there has been one at 20th though. I know the Bulls are not 20th, but they were and could be very soon.