More JR management stuff (Horace Grant)

Kush77

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In the discussion about Bulls management and how the Jerrys operate I brought up the Horace Grant situation.
When I was going through those old articles I came across this one.

Kukoc Gets Top Money - Bulls Give Croatian 6-Year, $26 Million Deal
Chicago Sun-Times - Saturday, August 6, 1994
Author: Lacy J. Banks

The exodus of the Bulls' best players paused when they dubbed Toni Kukoc their new "franchise" star by signing him to an unprecedented six-year, $26 million contract.

Kukoc, despite starting only eight games and averaging 10.9 points last season, became the Bulls' highest-paid player with a pact averaging a club-record $4.33 million a year.

Kukoc will earn more than $3 million next year, one source said. B.J. Armstrong will rank second, earning $2.8 million in the first year of his five-year, $13 million extension. All-Star Scottie Pippen, the team's best player, will earn $2.1 million.

"I'm very happy with the new contract," Kukoc told Croatian reporters in Toronto, where he is playing with the Croatian National Team in the World Championship.

"There were some other teams interested in Toni," said Herb Rudoy, Kukoc's agent. "He had a very substantial offer from a Greek professional team. But his intentions all along were to stay with the Bulls. He wasn't going anywhere."

"I love Chicago and my family is happy there, too," Kukoc said. "I hope to play for Chicago for many, many years."

The question is how Pippen will react to the news. Pippen had said earlier that he did not think it would be fair for Kukoc to receive a more lucrative contract than his, especially because he once was told the team would never pay him more than Jordan because Jordan was a better player.

Pippen said he could accept Horace Grant getting a better contract because Grant had played seven years with the Bulls and helped the team win three consecutive NBA championships. Now it is apparent that Kukoc was ticketed to get a bigger contract than Grant before he decided to sign with the Orlando Magic .

During a news conference last week, Bulls owner Jerry Reinsdorf said he offered Grant a five-year, $20 million deal.

"I'm not worried about (Pippen)" Kukoc told one writer. "We'll be fine . . . I think we can play together. I hope Scottie is still ( with the team next season)."

Pippen might feel otherwise.


So the Bulls wouldn't pony up the money, or match Orlando's offer, for an all-star PF who helped you win 3 championships. But that very offseason you make Toni Kukoc the highest paid player in franchise history (at the time) based on 1 season where he hit some game-winners and made the all-rookie 2nd team.

And some people wonder why the relationship between some players and management was so bad. You don't reward the guys who help win titles. But you give a huge deal to Krause's pet.

Not bashing Toni, I liked him a lot. But that's just one of several example on how Bulls management (the Jerrys) managed to alienate guys like Grant, Pippen, Jordan, Phil Jackson.
 

Shakes

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I don't know, if I could only keep one of Grant or Kukoc for the four seasons from 95 through to 98, I would pick Kukoc, and that's even without knowing about getting Rodman. To me this sounds like the Bulls management made the right decision.
 

houheffna

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Kukoc's contract was signed the year before, with Pippen and Grant still on the team I believe. If I am not mistaken, Reinsdorf tried to extend a new contract to Grant before the FA period started. Grant accepted but left anyway which infuriated Reinsdorf. I believe Reinsdorf is still pissed about that.

Plus didnt they trade for a guy named Dennis Rodman and give him an extensive pay raise to keep him?
 

Kush77

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houheffna wrote:
Kukoc's contract was signed the year before, with Pippen and Grant still on the team I believe. If I am not mistaken, Reinsdorf tried to extend a new contract to Grant before the FA period started. Grant accepted but left anyway which infuriated Reinsdorf. I believe Reinsdorf is still pissed about that.

According to this article Kukoc signed a new contract in 1994. So I guess (and I don't remember this at all) Toni Kukoc came over in 1993 and had only a 1-year deal. That must of been it.

As for the better decision. At the time keeping Grant would have been better. They should of kept both. But Horace Grant was entering his prime and played very well for Orlando.

You saw the impact of Grant leaving the team the next year in 1994-1995 because the Bulls were very mediocre until Jordan came back and they were able to pull away from .500.

As for the contract offer, it was a he said she said thing with Grant and JR. That's what I read.
 

Kush77

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houheffna wrote:
Plus didnt they trade for a guy named Dennis Rodman and give him an extensive pay raise to keep him?

Yeah, but when Horace Grant left in the 1994 offseason no one knew the Bulls were going to get Rodman. It worked out that they ended up getting him a season later because he wore out his welcome with SA. At the time about 99% of Bulls fans would have wanted to keep Grant.
 

Dpauley23

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In Sam's book Jordan Rules he talks about how Horace was felt disrespected by the organization that he verbal agreed to contract to spite JR
 

TheStig

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Kush77 wrote:
houheffna wrote:
Plus didnt they trade for a guy named Dennis Rodman and give him an extensive pay raise to keep him?

Yeah, but when Horace Grant left in the 1994 offseason no one knew the Bulls were going to get Rodman. It worked out that they ended up getting him a season later because he wore out his welcome with SA. At the time about 99% of Bulls fans would have wanted to keep Grant.

It also likely cost us a shot at contention when Jordan came back. If we would have had Grant in 95 we more likely than not beat the magic an come out of the east. That move potentially cost us a title.
 

Kush77

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Grant Signs With Magic , Disputes Reinsdorf's Story
Chicago Sun-Times - Saturday, July 30, 1994
Author: Daryl Van Schouwen


Jerry Reinsdorf and Horace Grant couldn't agree on a new contract. At least not in writing.

And now they can't even agree on why they couldn't agree.

Confused?

Welcome to the final chapter of Horace Grant 's story in Chicago.

In waving a bitter goodbye to the Bulls' free-agent forward just hours before Grant 's Friday night signing with the Magic , Reinsdorf called a rare news conference at the Berto Center to say Grant walked away from a handshake agreement on a five-year, $20 million contract.

"This is just another part of the morality of sports that is far below the level of morality that I'm used to," Reinsdorf said.

"I never, ever agreed to a contract with Jerry Reinsdorf," said Grant , whose new deal with the Magic is believed to be worth $22 million over six years with a one-year escape clause. "We shook hands . . . but it was when I was going out the door.

"We never had a deal. Jerry can say what he wants. We never had a deal.

"I never burn any bridges . . . my character speaks for itself. It's more the Chicago organization burning bridges."

That's not the way Reinsdorf remembers it.

"We were prepared to make him the highest-paid Chicago Bull of all time," said Reinsdorf, who said he had agreed to a deal with Grant on the eve of the playoffs, only to watch the All-Star back away after talking it over with his agent, Jimmy Sexton.

"I don't know how many times we told Horace we loved him personally. We tried to keep him happy," Reinsdorf said. "We never criticized him for (missing games because of) the blue flu, even though the number of games he didn't play this year because of the blue flu probably cost us the Eastern Conference championship."

In the 12 games Grant missed last season, the Bulls were 7-5. They finished two games behind the Atlanta Hawks and New York Knicks in the Eastern Conference.

Reinsdorf, deeming it necessary "to tell the entire story" of the Bulls' failed attempts to sign Grant , said Horace "was so excited, his eyes lit up like I've never seen before" when he agreed on the five-year deal plus incentives at an April 30 meeting in Reinsdorf's office. Sexton was not present at the meeting.

Said Reinsdorf: "He got up, walked over, shook hands with me and said, `This is great. This is wonderful. I don't want to go through a whole summer of not knowing what's going on. I probably can't even get this any place else. This is a deal. We have a deal.' "

Reinsdorf said he wrote down the particulars, put his signature on it and handed it to Grant . Grant then asked if he could give Sexton a courtesy call "to let Sexton know what he'd done before signing."

Then came a phone call that really frosted Reinsdorf, two days later.

According to Reinsdorf, Sexton said, "When Horace left the meeting with you, he called me from his car and said you had tried to take advantage of him and that you were offering much less money than he was worth."

The negotiations went downhill from there, but Bulls general manager Jerry Krause convinced Reinsdorf to continue. But Reinsdorf said Grant and Sexton dodged several attempts to negotiate. Early this week, Reinsdorf said he still was willing to meet with Grant and Sexton, but Grant chose not to.

"I do want our fans to know what happened because I'm tired of people complaining that we haven't tried to sign Horace Grant ," Reinsdorf said. "I thought the truth ought to get out."

A superb defender and tenacious rebounder whose presence was crucial to the Bulls' string of three NBA championships from 1991-93, Grant is the second big man to leave the Bulls in as many days. Scott Williams signed with the Philadelphia 76ers on Thursday.

The Bulls move into their new stadium, the United Center, in a rebuilding mode. Reinsdorf indicated the club would be open to the right deal involving All-Star forward Scottie Pippen, and Krause said the club is exploring several avenues, including trades and free agents.

"We have several other options at our disposal, and we'll look at every option," Krause said.

Among the free agents available to fill Grant 's void are Houston's Matt Bullard, Seattle's Michael Cage, San Antonio's Antoine Carr, Cleveland's Tyrone Hill, Orlando's Larry Krystkowiak, Cleveland's Larry Nance, Boston's Robert Parish and Sacramento's Wayman Tisdale.

"There are some guys who are a little older and more experienced," Krause said. "To play the power forward on this team, there's a specific role. Phil and I are going to sit down and look at it closely."

The Bulls also have Corie Blount, a rookie last season who did not make the playoff roster, and this year's first pick, Dickey Simpkins. That might not sound like much in contrast to Grant , but Krause expressed faith in the Bulls' system.

"This is a good franchise," Krause said. "We have a lot of good young players. This team is a talented team. We have lost two players in the last couple of days, but we have recovered from that before.

"We knew that this could happen. It's one of the reasons we felt so strongly about drafting a strong power guy in the draft and one of the reasons why we drafted Corie in the past."
 

Shakes

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Kush77 wrote:
As for the better decision. At the time keeping Grant would have been better. They should of kept both. But Horace Grant was entering his prime and played very well for Orlando.

Grant played better in Chicago than he did in Orlando. The Bulls basically chose the player on the way up vs the player on the way down. It was a gutsy, but correct, move.

I agree keeping them both would have been even better, but who knows if that was possible. It's not always about money, sometimes players don't want to share playing time etc.
 

houheffna

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It also likely cost us a shot at contention when Jordan came back. If we would have had Grant in 95 we more likely than not beat the magic an come out of the east. That move potentially cost us a title.

Grant didn't like Jordan either...and said so after he left. He also said when asked that no they were not friends. So Horace might have just wanted to leave. But in 1995, Jordan was not in shape to win a title. He was not as good and Orlando was excellent. That Jordan was too ineffective. That was Olajuwon's year...
 

TheStig

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Shakes wrote:
Kush77 wrote:
As for the better decision. At the time keeping Grant would have been better. They should of kept both. But Horace Grant was entering his prime and played very well for Orlando.

Grant played better in Chicago than he did in Orlando. The Bulls basically chose the player on the way up vs the player on the way down. It was a gutsy, but correct, move.

I agree keeping them both would have been even better, but who knows if that was possible. It's not always about money, sometimes players don't want to share playing time etc.

How was Grant getting worse? Grant was entering his prime. The reason Grant's numbers went down was because his role changed in Orlando. Grant went from getting the 2nd most shots his last year here to 5th. His efficiency went up nicely but his rebounds went down because he was playing next to one of the top big men in the game. Grant was no way in or near the downside of his career, he continued to have 3-4 more good years before he had a noticible decline. His shelf life would have lasted the entire dynasty run.

Kukoc may have had more upside but it wasn't a guarntee. We also only had simpkins and blount at pf whereas we had scottie at sf. But both should have been kept.
 
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Kukoc was making more than Jordan and Pippen that first year he came or he just signed the biggest long-term contract?

Either way that's amazing.

Good point Kush.

Kush77 wrote:
In the discussion about Bulls management and how the Jerrys operate I brought up the Horace Grant situation.
When I was going through those old articles I came across this one.

Kukoc Gets Top Money - Bulls Give Croatian 6-Year, $26 Million Deal
Chicago Sun-Times - Saturday, August 6, 1994
Author: Lacy J. Banks

The exodus of the Bulls' best players paused when they dubbed Toni Kukoc their new "franchise" star by signing him to an unprecedented six-year, $26 million contract.

Kukoc, despite starting only eight games and averaging 10.9 points last season, became the Bulls' highest-paid player with a pact averaging a club-record $4.33 million a year.

Kukoc will earn more than $3 million next year, one source said. B.J. Armstrong will rank second, earning $2.8 million in the first year of his five-year, $13 million extension. All-Star Scottie Pippen, the team's best player, will earn $2.1 million.

"I'm very happy with the new contract," Kukoc told Croatian reporters in Toronto, where he is playing with the Croatian National Team in the World Championship.

"There were some other teams interested in Toni," said Herb Rudoy, Kukoc's agent. "He had a very substantial offer from a Greek professional team. But his intentions all along were to stay with the Bulls. He wasn't going anywhere."

"I love Chicago and my family is happy there, too," Kukoc said. "I hope to play for Chicago for many, many years."

The question is how Pippen will react to the news. Pippen had said earlier that he did not think it would be fair for Kukoc to receive a more lucrative contract than his, especially because he once was told the team would never pay him more than Jordan because Jordan was a better player.

Pippen said he could accept Horace Grant getting a better contract because Grant had played seven years with the Bulls and helped the team win three consecutive NBA championships. Now it is apparent that Kukoc was ticketed to get a bigger contract than Grant before he decided to sign with the Orlando Magic .

During a news conference last week, Bulls owner Jerry Reinsdorf said he offered Grant a five-year, $20 million deal.

"I'm not worried about (Pippen)" Kukoc told one writer. "We'll be fine . . . I think we can play together. I hope Scottie is still ( with the team next season)."

Pippen might feel otherwise.


So the Bulls wouldn't pony up the money, or match Orlando's offer, for an all-star PF who helped you win 3 championships. But that very offseason you make Toni Kukoc the highest paid player in franchise history (at the time) based on 1 season where he hit some game-winners and made the all-rookie 2nd team.

And some people wonder why the relationship between some players and management was so bad. You don't reward the guys who help win titles. But you give a huge deal to Krause's pet.

Not bashing Toni, I liked him a lot. But that's just one of several example on how Bulls management (the Jerrys) managed to alienate guys like Grant, Pippen, Jordan, Phil Jackson.
 

Kush77

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Shakes wrote:
Kush77 wrote:
As for the better decision. At the time keeping Grant would have been better. They should of kept both. But Horace Grant was entering his prime and played very well for Orlando.

Grant played better in Chicago than he did in Orlando. The Bulls basically chose the player on the way up vs the player on the way down. It was a gutsy, but correct, move.

I agree keeping them both would have been even better, but who knows if that was possible. It's not always about money, sometimes players don't want to share playing time etc.

I disagree, I think Grant continued to get better in Orlando. Especially with his mid-range jump shot. A shot that pissed me off over and over during the 1995 second round.

I haven't looked at the numbers, they might not of been as good. but you have to factor in that he was playing with Shaq and that would effect his total reb. and scoring numbers.

Horace was about 29 and right in his prime. Kukoc played well but comparing those two players is like comparing apples and oranges. They brought different things to the table.
 

Shakes

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The primary difference between Chicago Grant and Orlando Grant is that his offensive rebounding fell. Usually it's defensive rebounding that suffers through playing next to another good rebounder. Offensive rebounding falling off is more a sign of getting older and not being as explosive.

I'm not saying Grant was a bad player, I'm saying that Kukoc was better. I think management deserves a huge amount of credit for having the foresight to see that this would be the case, because you're correct that rookie Kukoc wasn't better than Grant.
 

Diddy1122

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Kush77 wrote:
Grant Signs With Magic , Disputes Reinsdorf's Story
Chicago Sun-Times - Saturday, July 30, 1994
Author: Daryl Van Schouwen


The Bulls move into their new stadium, the United Center, in a rebuilding mode. Reinsdorf indicated the club would be open to the right deal involving All-Star forward Scottie Pippen, and Krause said the club is exploring several avenues, including trades and free agents.

"We have several other options at our disposal, and we'll look at every option," Krause said.

Among the free agents available to fill Grant 's void are Houston's Matt Bullard, Seattle's Michael Cage, San Antonio's Antoine Carr, Cleveland's Tyrone Hill, Orlando's Larry Krystkowiak, Cleveland's Larry Nance, Boston's Robert Parish and Sacramento's Wayman Tisdale.

"There are some guys who are a little older and more experienced," Krause said. "To play the power forward on this team, there's a specific role. Phil and I are going to sit down and look at it closely."

The Bulls also have Corie Blount, a rookie last season who did not make the playoff roster, and this year's first pick, Dickey Simpkins. That might not sound like much in contrast to Grant , but Krause expressed faith in the Bulls' system.

"This is a good franchise," Krause said. "We have a lot of good young players. This team is a talented team. We have lost two players in the last couple of days, but we have recovered from that before.

"We knew that this could happen. It's one of the reasons we felt so strongly about drafting a strong power guy in the draft and one of the reasons why we drafted Corie in the past."

The end of this article had me in stitches. A strong power guy in Dickey Simpkins? :laugh: :laugh: I love Dickey Simpkins, met him several times & ran into him outside Jewel last month where he was eating chicken wings on a bench outside, but a strong power guy? Hardly. And Corie Blount? I mean, WOW, Krause really thought he could polish any turd into a diamond. And who was the other good young player on that team? Jo Jo English?

I wasn't greatly upset that Grant left, because I was a Toni fan from day 1, but I wanted the Bulls to sign either Parish or Tisdale that year if that weren't going for Grant. Instead, we signed Krystowiak & Greg Foster to replace Grant & Williams.
 

TheStig

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Shakes wrote:
The primary difference between Chicago Grant and Orlando Grant is that his offensive rebounding fell. Usually it's defensive rebounding that suffers through playing next to another good rebounder. Offensive rebounding falling off is more a sign of getting older and not being as explosive.

I'm not saying Grant was a bad player, I'm saying that Kukoc was better. I think management deserves a huge amount of credit for having the foresight to see that this would be the case, because you're correct that rookie Kukoc wasn't better than Grant.

Or it could be the difference between playing with a poor rebounding longley and the guy who had the second most offensive rebounds in the league that year. Shaq in his younger days was always top 5 in the league in offensive rebounds and is 8th overall in nba history.
 

TheStig

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houheffna wrote:
It also likely cost us a shot at contention when Jordan came back. If we would have had Grant in 95 we more likely than not beat the magic an come out of the east. That move potentially cost us a title.

Grant didn't like Jordan either...and said so after he left. He also said when asked that no they were not friends. So Horace might have just wanted to leave. But in 1995, Jordan was not in shape to win a title. He was not as good and Orlando was excellent. That Jordan was too ineffective. That was Olajuwon's year...


What makes you say Horace wasn't as good? Do you think he drastically declined in the middle of his prime? It had a lot more to do with his role on the team and playing with HOF big.

Again, it can't be said with certainty but Horace put that team over the top from the previous year and really wounded us. Its not unbelievable that with Horace back and them having a hole at pf that we wouldn't have had a great chance. The magic were also really young and Horace was their vet. Finals, you never know, Mj never lost in the finals. MJ had gotten rid of most of his rust by then and was still MJ, you can't count him out.
 

houheffna

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MJ wasn't as good, not Horace. MJ in 1995 was not in good shape and would not have been able to win a championship.
 

TheStig

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houheffna wrote:
MJ wasn't as good, not Horace. MJ in 1995 was not in good shape and would not have been able to win a championship.

BS, MJ had a great but short playoffs that year. MJ shot a higher fg% than he did in any of the 2nd 3peat, he played the 2nd most mpg, 2nd most apg, 2nd most ppg and 2nd most rpg. If MJ could win a ring the other two years in the three peat, he certainly was capable of doing it that year. The only difference was a complete and utter lack of a PF. Just look at his numbers and tell me he wasn't the same old MJ by the playoffs.
 

houheffna

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No he wasn't, that is why they lost...he was slower, and weaker than he would be the following year. He said that himself. He was not in basketball shape. I watched him play. I KNOW he wasn't in basketball shape. There is no way he wins the title as he was.
 

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