More JR management stuff (Horace Grant)

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

No he wasn't, that is why they lost...he was slower, and weaker than he would be the following year. He said that himself. He was not in basketball shape. I watched him play. I KNOW he wasn't in basketball shape. There is no way he wins the title as he was.

Stats don't lie. He had better stats than 2 of the 3 2nd peat playoffs. If he was slower, weaker and out of shape his stats would suffer and be better. He said that during the year not the playoffs and to be honest, the 2nd peat jordan was significantly worse than the 1st. If we still had grant, we would deal a huge blow to the magic and be greatly improved. You do remember grant averaged 18.5 and 8 against us during that series. The only difference between that team and the other 3pt teams was a pf. MJ may have been rusty earlier in the year but everythign was worked out by the playoffs.

 

[clonetrooper264]

TheStig wrote:

houheffna wrote:

No he wasn't, that is why they lost...he was slower, and weaker than he would be the following year. He said that himself. He was not in basketball shape. I watched him play. I KNOW he wasn't in basketball shape. There is no way he wins the title as he was.

Stats don't lie. He had better stats than 2 of the 3 2nd peat playoffs. If he was slower, weaker and out of shape his stats would suffer and be better. He said that during the year not the playoffs and to be honest, the 2nd peat jordan was significantly worse than the 1st. If we still had grant, we would deal a huge blow to the magic and be greatly improved. You do remember grant averaged 18.5 and 8 against us during that series. The only difference between that team and the other 3pt teams was a pf. MJ may have been rusty earlier in the year but everythign was worked out by the playoffs.

Technically speaking, everything changed between the two teams except MJ and Pip. Pax/Harper, Grant/Rodman, Cartwright/Longley

 

[houheffna]

Did you even watch that year?

That he adjusted only underscored Jordan's rare physical and mental gifts. That he had to adjust from quarter to quarter only illuminated the depth of the challenge he had undertaken. In the end, the only constant seemed to be Jordan's inconsistency.

"I had been gone 18 months, and I got a taste of what it was like to struggle last year," Jordan reflected. "I wasn't really physically prepared from a basketball standpoint. But I knew what I had to do."

For Jordan, the answers were where they had always been. From the time he was old enough to go off on his own, trials and tribulations has been dealt with on a basketball court. Playing the game, whether back in North Carolina as a child or in an impassioned pick-up game as an adult, Jordan found calm amid the chaos of competition. By the time he walked out of the United Center last June and drove past the statue of himself outside the main gate, Michael Jordan had decided to rebuild--immediately.

Tim Grover, Jordan's personal fitness trainer for seven years, would be the architect.

"I've never seen him work harder than he did last summer," said Grover. "The very next day after the Bulls were eliminated, Michael started working out. It was the earliest I have ever seen him start. I used to have to schedule his workouts during spare time away from a golf game. But for the first time, golf took a set back."

 

[Shakes]

Obviously Chicago having Grant and Orlando not having him probably changes that result, but I'm not sure the Bulls could have beaten the Rockets anyway. Hakeem put up 4 30+ point games on Shaq ...

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

Did you even watch that year?

That he adjusted only underscored Jordan's rare physical and mental gifts. That he had to adjust from quarter to quarter only illuminated the depth of the challenge he had undertaken. In the end, the only constant seemed to be Jordan's inconsistency.

"I had been gone 18 months, and I got a taste of what it was like to struggle last year," Jordan reflected. "I wasn't really physically prepared from a basketball standpoint. But I knew what I had to do."

For Jordan, the answers were where they had always been. From the time he was old enough to go off on his own, trials and tribulations has been dealt with on a basketball court. Playing the game, whether back in North Carolina as a child or in an impassioned pick-up game as an adult, Jordan found calm amid the chaos of competition. By the time he walked out of the United Center last June and drove past the statue of himself outside the main gate, Michael Jordan had decided to rebuild--immediately.

Tim Grover, Jordan's personal fitness trainer for seven years, would be the architect.

"I've never seen him work harder than he did last summer," said Grover. "The very next day after the Bulls were eliminated, Michael started working out. It was the earliest I have ever seen him start. I used to have to schedule his workouts during spare time away from a golf game. But for the first time, golf took a set back."

I watched and he was a completly different player in the playoffs than regular season. Numbers don't lie, the struggle was because the roster wasn't up to snuff. And he wasn't the type to deflect blame on to others, he took it upon himself to improve but if you take it at face value, he really was never the same as the first 3peat. So if he wasn't as good then, he never fully came back. Clearly you can't argue that he wasn't good enough when the same team that had one 55 games the year before with grant was barely over .500 when he came back. Jordan, as bad as you claim he was lead them to a 13 and 4 record when he returned and that was with two losses early in the comeback. But he clearly was only good enough to lead them to .750 ball, thats only a 60 win pace.

 

[TheStig]

Shakes wrote:

Obviously Chicago having Grant and Orlando not having him probably changes that result, but I'm not sure the Bulls could have beaten the Rockets anyway. Hakeem put up 4 30+ point games on Shaq ...

Thats fine, I understand that, but we would have been competing for a title. And you never rule out MJ in the finals. He always found a way. Win or lose the finals, we would have been there, not out in the semis.

 

[Shakes]

TheStig wrote:

Shakes wrote:

Obviously Chicago having Grant and Orlando not having him probably changes that result, but I'm not sure the Bulls could have beaten the Rockets anyway. Hakeem put up 4 30+ point games on Shaq ...

Thats fine, I understand that, but we would have been competing for a title. And you never rule out MJ in the finals. He always found a way. Win or lose the finals, we would have been there, not out in the semis.

And we might not have been there other years without Kukoc and Rodman. Honestly I'd take the under on the over/under 3 titles if we kept Grant.

 

[houheffna]

Give me a break man...please tell me you are not this damn petty...

"I had been gone 18 months, and I got a taste of what it was like to struggle last year," Jordan reflected. "I wasn't really physically prepared from a basketball standpoint. But I knew what I had to do."

what the heck about that don't you understand? HE WAS OUT OF SHAPE! Let it go, you are wrong and admit it....

 

[TheStig]

Shakes wrote:

TheStig wrote:

Shakes wrote:

Obviously Chicago having Grant and Orlando not having him probably changes that result, but I'm not sure the Bulls could have beaten the Rockets anyway. Hakeem put up 4 30+ point games on Shaq ...

Thats fine, I understand that, but we would have been competing for a title. And you never rule out MJ in the finals. He always found a way. Win or lose the finals, we would have been there, not out in the semis.

And we might not have been there other years without Kukoc and Rodman. Honestly I'd take the under on the over/under 3 titles if we kept Grant.

I really don't think Grant vs rodman would have made us win less titles, but I am not going to try to rerewrite history. Whatever Grant lost on the boards he made up in size and offense. Kukoc was here no matter what, so I don't get what you mean, we already had kukoc locked up at that point.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

Give me a break man...please tell me you are not this damn petty...

"I had been gone 18 months, and I got a taste of what it was like to struggle last year," Jordan reflected. "I wasn't really physically prepared from a basketball standpoint. But I knew what I had to do."

what the heck about that don't you understand? HE WAS OUT OF SHAPE! Let it go, you are wrong and admit it....

You make him sound like fucking eddy curry. A out of shape MJ is still a top 5 player in the league. Not to mention the team was two games over .500. After he came back, they finished at 13 and 4 thats a 60+win pace. Clearly, he wasn't doing to bad. Not to mention his playoff stats were better than 2 of the 3 years of the 2nd three peat. Meanwhile the bulls were a 55 win team without MJ the previous year with grant. Without grant, they were only 2 games over .500 till mj came back. You underestimate Grant's impact as the only good big.

What MJ probably meant was he wasn't the same as the previous three peat, which he never was again. But it was still good enough to win 2 titles with worse stats than his comeback playoffs.

 

[houheffna]

You make him sound like fucking eddy curry. A out of shape MJ is still a top 5 player in the league. Not to mention the team was two games over .500. After he came back, they finished at 13 and 4 thats a 60+win pace. Clearly, he wasn't doing to bad. Not to mention his playoff stats were better than 2 of the 3 years of the 2nd three peat. Meanwhile the bulls were a 55 win team without MJ the previous year with grant. Without grant, they were only 2 games over .500 till mj came back. You underestimate Grant's impact as the only good big.

What MJ probably meant was he wasn't the same as the previous three peat, which he never was again. But it was still good enough to win 2 titles with worse stats than his comeback playoffs.

And you probably mean you wrong but you are arguing just for the sake of arguing...

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

You make him sound like fucking eddy curry. A out of shape MJ is still a top 5 player in the league. Not to mention the team was two games over .500. After he came back, they finished at 13 and 4 thats a 60+win pace. Clearly, he wasn't doing to bad. Not to mention his playoff stats were better than 2 of the 3 years of the 2nd three peat. Meanwhile the bulls were a 55 win team without MJ the previous year with grant. Without grant, they were only 2 games over .500 till mj came back. You underestimate Grant's impact as the only good big.

What MJ probably meant was he wasn't the same as the previous three peat, which he never was again. But it was still good enough to win 2 titles with worse stats than his comeback playoffs.

And you probably mean you wrong but you are arguing just for the sake of arguing...

That is a very good response. the bottom line is everything I said in the last post is true and there is nothing you can say to the contrary besides he was out of shape. Like he magically got better the next year. He didn't, he was worse than the previous years but still on the same par as the final three peat. If Grant doesn't put up his 18 and 8.5 against us but for us, we are in the finals.

 

[houheffna]

You have no reason to continue this and neither will I. You are being a bit too silly right now. What I am saying is common knowledge. You have such a mad on against me that you won't even admit you are wrong in this argument. He did get better over the summer, read the damn quotes! How old are you 18? You wasn't watching in 1995 for you to sit here and argue. He was not at all himself in that series. He was exposed. I remember that very well. I watched him play, he came back bigger and stronger. Nick Anderson gave him a very hard time...admit that your mistake and move on...for pete's sake man...

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

You have no reason to continue this and neither will I. You are being a bit too silly right now. What I am saying is common knowledge. You have such a mad on against me that you won't even admit you are wrong in this argument. He did get better over the summer, read the damn quotes! How old are you 18? You wasn't watching in 1995 for you to sit here and argue. He was not at all himself in that series. He was exposed. I remember that very well. I watched him play, he came back bigger and stronger. Nick Anderson gave him a very hard time...admit that your mistake and move on...for pete's sake man...

Don't flatter yourself, you aren't worth holding a vandetta against. The bottom line is a out of shape MJ is still a top 5 player in the league and before he came back they were barely over .500 and after they finished at over a 60 win pace. You can ignore the fact that Grant had a amazing series against us or that we had no front court but MJ statistically was MJ and thats what matters. The fact was he never got better, he had lost a step from the 1st 3pt forever. MJ may have gotten stronger but he was still more than good enough to win a ring, which two out of the next 3 years he did so with worse playoffs. The difference was he had a real pf. If you can't admit that not having anything worth a crap in the front court severly hurt them you are beyond delusional. A 40 year old MJ was still a 20ppg scorer and nearly carried his team to the playoffs, he could certainly do it 7 yrs earlier with a top 50 player next to him.

 

[Shakes]

TheStig wrote:

Shakes wrote:

TheStig wrote:

Shakes wrote:

Obviously Chicago having Grant and Orlando not having him probably changes that result, but I'm not sure the Bulls could have beaten the Rockets anyway. Hakeem put up 4 30+ point games on Shaq ...

Thats fine, I understand that, but we would have been competing for a title. And you never rule out MJ in the finals. He always found a way. Win or lose the finals, we would have been there, not out in the semis.

And we might not have been there other years without Kukoc and Rodman. Honestly I'd take the under on the over/under 3 titles if we kept Grant.

I really don't think Grant vs rodman would have made us win less titles, but I am not going to try to rerewrite history. Whatever Grant lost on the boards he made up in size and offense. Kukoc was here no matter what, so I don't get what you mean, we already had kukoc locked up at that point.

The thread is about how signing Kukoc made Grant leave, so presumably to sign Grant we'd have had to not sign Kokoc.

 

[TheStig]

Shakes wrote:

TheStig wrote:

Shakes wrote:

TheStig wrote:

Shakes wrote:

Obviously Chicago having Grant and Orlando not having him probably changes that result, but I'm not sure the Bulls could have beaten the Rockets anyway. Hakeem put up 4 30+ point games on Shaq ...

Thats fine, I understand that, but we would have been competing for a title. And you never rule out MJ in the finals. He always found a way. Win or lose the finals, we would have been there, not out in the semis.

And we might not have been there other years without Kukoc and Rodman. Honestly I'd take the under on the over/under 3 titles if we kept Grant.

I really don't think Grant vs rodman would have made us win less titles, but I am not going to try to rerewrite history. Whatever Grant lost on the boards he made up in size and offense. Kukoc was here no matter what, so I don't get what you mean, we already had kukoc locked up at that point.

The thread is about how signing Kukoc made Grant leave, so presumably to sign Grant we'd have had to not sign Kokoc.

But there was nothing preventing us from signing both is the point. They could have easily had both and its not like Rodman didn't get paid during his time here. Rodman made 3/16 here which is more than Grant would have gotten over that period on his 6/22 he signed.

 

[Shakes]

TheStig wrote:

You make him sound like fucking eddy curry. A out of shape MJ is still a top 5 player in the league. Not to mention the team was two games over .500. After he came back, they finished at 13 and 4 thats a 60+win pace. Clearly, he wasn't doing to bad.

The team was already better than its record. They may have been 34-32, but the point differential for the team was more like a 50+ win team than the low 40s they were on track for, even before MJ came back. MJ made them better, but they were a pretty good team already.

 

[Shakes]

TheStig wrote:

But there was nothing preventing us from signing both is the point. They could have easily had both and its not like Rodman didn't get paid during his time here. Rodman made 3/16 here which is more than Grant would have gotten over that period on his 6/22 he signed.

My reading of the article is not that we didn't want to sign Grant, it's that Grant left because he felt insulted that the Bulls signed Kukoc to more than he was offered.

 

[TheStig]

Shakes wrote:

TheStig wrote:

You make him sound like fucking eddy curry. A out of shape MJ is still a top 5 player in the league. Not to mention the team was two games over .500. After he came back, they finished at 13 and 4 thats a 60+win pace. Clearly, he wasn't doing to bad.

The team was already better than its record. They may have been 34-32, but the point differential for the team was more like a 50+ win team than the low 40s they were on track for, even before MJ came back. MJ made them better, but they were a pretty good team already.

But they weren't is the point. A lot of their bigger wins came after MJ came back and all of their losses were close. They posted the final 4 loses by less than 20 points total and 10 of their 13 wins were by 7 points or more, their point differntial skyrocketed after he came back. It wasn't always that high, before he came back they had quite a few 10+ point losses.

 

[Shakes]

TheStig wrote:

But they weren't is the point. A lot of their bigger wins came after MJ came back and all of their losses were close. They posted the final 4 loses by less than 20 points total and 10 of their 13 wins were by 7 points or more, their point differntial skyrocketed after he came back. It wasn't always that high, before he came back they had quite a few 10+ point losses.

I can't be bothered working out what their exact differential was, but for example before the all-star break they went 23-25 yet outscored their opponents 100.3-97.4. That kind of differential normally has you around 50 wins.