Nagy Predictible in '19? Personnel Usage data says Yes - Article by J.Wood

Starion

CCS Donator
Donator
Joined:
Aug 29, 2012
Posts:
4,294
Liked Posts:
2,598
Location:
Fort Myers, FL
https://dabearsblog.com/2020/personnel-usage-remains-a-problem-on-offense

Seems the Cohen / DM split was pretty telling. Miller somewhat too. Sample of article...

Personnel Predictability
How predictable was Chicago’s offense when several of their key players were on or off the field?

The table below shows changes in run percentage when skill position guys who played between 35-65% of the snaps were in the game vs. on the sideline.
  • On the high end, that excludes players who almost never leave the field (Allen Robinson played over 93% of offensive snaps in 2019) because their “off field” splits would be too small to be worth considering.
  • On the low end, it excludes situational players who often only come in for situations where a run or pass is expected (ie the 4th WR in a 4 WR set for 3rd and long, or the 2nd TE in a short-yardage set).
Instead, I want to look at how the Bears deployed their key skill position players as they rotated through in a game.

(Note: This data is pulled from the NFL Game Statistics and Information System, which includes sacks and QB scrambles as passing plays.)


Click link for the rest....
https://dabearsblog.com/2020/personnel-usage-remains-a-problem-on-offense
 
  • Like
Reactions: DC

msadows

Well-known member
Joined:
Aug 23, 2012
Posts:
25,351
Liked Posts:
20,556
Well...yea.

When you can't run the ball against nickel and a team never has to rush more than 4 to get to your QB your offense starts to get slightly predictable.

Hint...play the pass, because we can't run even if you have 3 down linemen.
 

kerrywoodwins20

Harvey Weinstein's Biggest Fan
Joined:
Oct 21, 2019
Posts:
762
Liked Posts:
291
Well...yea.

When you can't run the ball against nickel and a team never has to rush more than 4 to get to your QB your offense starts to get slightly predictable.

Hint...play the pass, because we can't run even if you have 3 down linemen.

but a packers player said their game plan was to make Mitch beat them. Clearly that means they stuffed the box to shut down the run and then Mitch lost the game all by himself!

lol
 

msadows

Well-known member
Joined:
Aug 23, 2012
Posts:
25,351
Liked Posts:
20,556
but a packers player said their game plan was to make Mitch beat them. Clearly that means they stuffed the box to shut down the run and then Mitch lost the game all by himself!

lol

Nah they didn't tho. Why would they stack the box when they don't need to do it to stop the run? Monty saw a ton less stacked boxes than howard ever did. (I know it was sarcasm, btw)

They actually did what I just stated.

Then every team did the same thing.

Nagy had no answer, well, besides saying he knows hes not an idiot. That's an answer I guess.

When a team has zero fear of the run and doesn't have to do anything special to stop it your offense becomes grade-school and predictable.

But yea, it's all the QB's fault. Biggest football laugh I've had in years was when WCBF told me that the reason they couldnt run the ball against nickel was all mitch's fault.

The players don't fit the scheme, it's pretty dang simple. And nagy is either too damn stubborn or inexperienced to adjust a scheme to fit his players(like a good coach does).
 

Starion

CCS Donator
Donator
Joined:
Aug 29, 2012
Posts:
4,294
Liked Posts:
2,598
Location:
Fort Myers, FL
^ This. Run blocking was that abysmal, teams didn't need to stack or rush more than 4. GB showed everyone that week 1.


Nagy needs diff. player talent to run block effectively or he needs to change his scheme so they can run block effectively. AND/OR the OL talent just fell off a damn cliff???

It's clear on tape OL form and effort was also terrible in addition to play calling and scheme.

This despite what we were fed about these OL fitting Nagy's scheme well because of speed. Well, they still were late & lost more often than not. Or getting straight up man-handled & beat. Was like a damn celestial alignment when all 11 ran a play correctly at once.

We've read where D players knew a pass was coming pre-snap & vid shows this where they tell DL to bail on the rush & drop. Say what you will, but pick any week of DDP's Tape Never Lies game review vids & cue the endless loop SMDH gifs to personify the frustration of failure he points out.
 

RubberBanMan

I’m just a fan
Donator
Joined:
Sep 28, 2018
Posts:
3,001
Liked Posts:
3,127
Who are the guys nagy has scout their own team to prevent tipping plays or being predictable?

Montgomery should hardly ever leave the field imo.
 

kerrywoodwins20

Harvey Weinstein's Biggest Fan
Joined:
Oct 21, 2019
Posts:
762
Liked Posts:
291
Nah they didn't tho. Why would they stack the box when they don't need to do it to stop the run? Monty saw a ton less stacked boxes than howard ever did. (I know it was sarcasm, btw)

They actually did what I just stated.

Then every team did the same thing.

Nagy had no answer, well, besides saying he knows hes not an idiot. That's an answer I guess.

When a team has zero fear of the run and doesn't have to do anything special to stop it your offense becomes grade-school and predictable.

But yea, it's all the QB's fault. Biggest football laugh I've had in years was when WCBF told me that the reason they couldnt run the ball against nickel was all mitch's fault.

The players don't fit the scheme, it's pretty dang simple. And nagy is either too damn stubborn or inexperienced to adjust a scheme to fit his players(like a good coach does).

I was agreeing with you.
 

BearDownZZ

Active member
Joined:
Aug 21, 2012
Posts:
493
Liked Posts:
420
You can make the case the offense was predictable but not because of the share % of players.

Cohen is a joker back. he plays a lot of snaps on 3rd and long. Of course we will are going to pass more on long down and distance. Miller played a lot of slot and 3/4 WR sets so you are going to pass in those formations more than run.

We were predictable because we were terribly ineffective on first down. We didn't run well. This means we ran a lot of plays on 2nd and 3rd and long. We would try to run and 2nd and long and get eaten up. We had to try to pass more. Teams knew we would likely pass. Predictable. We had to try to add a FB in I formation. Thats predictable.

The root of the problem was ineffective offense that was particularly bad on first downs, which took away manageable down and distances that are less predictable. 2nd and 5, 3rd and 2. You can run or pass equally well on those downs. We didn't have enough of those manageable downs.
 

modo

Based
Donator
Joined:
Aug 21, 2012
Posts:
29,628
Liked Posts:
24,178
Location:
USA
It is nice to see it in numbers to confirm what I have been bitching about for a year and a half....
 

Outlaw Josey Cutler

CCS Donator
Donator
Joined:
Nov 5, 2012
Posts:
4,300
Liked Posts:
2,352
Location:
NJ
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Penn State Nittany Lions
You can make the case the offense was predictable but not because of the share % of players.

QFT. I thought the percentages weren't that terrible and was kind of surprised that when Montgomery is on the field it's 50-50 whether they run. Cohen looks obvious but I wonder what his splits would be run % when he is on the field early downs vs. obvious passing 3rd downs. Oh well, it doesn't matter:

this offense was extremely predictable but probably based on down, distance and field position more so than personnel packaging.

I also agree with everyone that the run blocking was so trash that no D needed add to any bodies besides the obligatory 6-7 up front to stop the running game from even sniffing decent production most weeks.
 

Outlaw Josey Cutler

CCS Donator
Donator
Joined:
Nov 5, 2012
Posts:
4,300
Liked Posts:
2,352
Location:
NJ
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Penn State Nittany Lions
It is nice to see it in numbers to confirm what I have been bitching about for a year and a half....

Thought you already crunched the numbers satisfactorily for you to announce Mitch only needs a running game?

I still find a flaw in your analysis that I suspect Mitch needs to face a bottom-tier defense that allows Nagy's shitty run system to work decently as more likely of an explanation for when Mitch flourishes than any other factor though.
 

Bearly

Dissed membered
Donator
Joined:
Aug 17, 2011
Posts:
43,301
Liked Posts:
23,551
Location:
Palatine, IL
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Cubs
  1. Chicago Bulls
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
The Monty snaps are most telling. You get a back like that to keep teams guessing. He was probably the top route runner at his position in college and then this. I've said since we hired Nagy, I prefer an O where you run a lot of different things from a few sets instead of the same things from lots of different sets. The 1st confuses a D, the second confuses an O.
 

FoCo

Well-known member
Joined:
Aug 21, 2012
Posts:
489
Liked Posts:
641
Not only is Nagy predictable, he is a soft coach that teaches players to run sideways and not up the field.


“I think the biggest difference is the mentality,” tight end Travis Kelce recently told the #PFTPM podcast. “Coach Bieniemy brings a fierce aggressive mentality to the offense. Kind of a gritty, punch-you-in-the-mouth-type of mindset, and I think that has rubbed off on everybody, from Pat [Mahomes] throwing the ball aggressively down field. The play calling is a little bit more aggressive and, sure enough, everybody getting the ball has been a north runner. There’s not too much running sideways. Everybody’s getting downhill trying to finish the plays in the end zone.”
 

msadows

Well-known member
Joined:
Aug 23, 2012
Posts:
25,351
Liked Posts:
20,556
No shit that Nagy is predictable.

Cohen in the backfield? Gee I don’t know.
Patterson in the backfield? Gee I don’t know.

The deep ball is also a non factor because Mitch can’t throw it.

The, the deep ball is a non factor, because, for the 100th time, teams mostly played the pass this year against us.

In 2018 when teams were honest we threw the deep ball as much as anyone.

Yes, mitch isn't accurate at it, but the threat was still there in '18.
 

HearshotKDS

Well-known member
Joined:
Sep 9, 2012
Posts:
6,727
Liked Posts:
6,899
Location:
Lake Forest
I think the author makes a few assumptions that aren't true, but he's still correct RE predictable play calling, just not for the reasons he lists:

* That the on field/off field run% splits are indicative of predictable playcalling - this is sometimes accurate, but not always accurate, and often not accurate at all. Knowing whether a play is run or pass isn't always useful if you don't also know where the run is going or what route combination/concept the offense is using. Many plays also have built in tools to help confuse/obfuscate what they are doing/where they are doing it. Think counter runs, option runs, delayed release receivers, etc.

* Nagy decides the outcome of all plays - For the Bears RPO, Nagy doesn't actually decide who gets the ball, he just calls the formation and the play. Mitch has to decide to hand-off, keep, or pass based on his pre-snap and what are supposed to be post-snap reads (I don't think Mitch is doing the post snap reads yet, at least not doing them consistently correct). Theoretically, if one of these players (take Miller for example), saw 40% of his snaps be RPOs, but the QB chooses to run on 80% of their RPO plays, then Miller is going to have a highly skewed on field/off field run %. But hypothetically, this isn't being predictable, its reacting to what the defense is doing and choosing the most successful option. In reality though, I think our QB does have predictable habits on what he chooses for the RPO but that's a different issue.

* This is a data point that is relevant on player by player basis - I think this is the biggest one for me, the methodology the author uses (finding on field/off field run-pass % splits for a single player) would be much better off if he instead did it with 3-5 player personnel groups. Hypothetical example - Robinson as a single player does a lot of stuff on his own. He has run WR reverses; deep routes, intermediate routes, short routes across a plethora of different route combos/concepts; run blocks; etc. Just looking at only Robinsonon a play by play basis he could do anything. But if you instead look at the personnel group of "Robinson - Wimms - Braunecker - Montgomery - Holtz", you get a much more predictable picture of what this GROUP can do. IE, the listed group is the power run package - they are going to run inside power runs on 70% of their snaps, pass on 30% with 12% being PA pass, and 18% being Smash route concepts between Wimms and Holtz + Robinson and Braunecker." If the author was to find this data for 3-5 player personnel groups I think he would see even more polarized split %s, and I think a lot of the Bears predictability comes from these set personnel groups, not the individuals within them. The split that comes to my mind is Wimms - Braunecker - Holtz, when those 3 players were on the field at the same time I would be shocked if they adidn't run on over 80% of their snaps together.

* If defenses know run or pass, they can get a step ahead of the offense to reduce yards - This is often true, but just as often if the defense plays the %s and commits to run/pass, they are setting themselves to be burned by play-action/draw plays designed to punish defenses for doing just that. If a defense plays the %s and is able to reduce an offenses YPC by 1 yard per play on 9/10 plays, but then gets burned for an extra 20 yards and a TD by a play action pass on the 10th play, that's an overall net negative to the defense. Obviously at some point the #s work, IE if player X is 99% run, 1% pass then the above works, but the split almost has to be so extreme to make it work, that you're almost never going to see those split #'s on a single player. I would bet you start to get there though when you look at multiple player groups though, hence my above point.


TLDR: Bears play calling was predictable, but single player on field/off field run-pass splits aren't the reason why.
 

Top