No Child Left Behind Going Away

[BigPete]

Since we are talking about pay in the public school system and not "No Child Left Behind" I have to add this to the conversation:



Why in the sam hell are there public school administrators making over $200,000 a year??? You really think your job commands that much money? Especially when you are regularly firing teachers to make budgets?



As to the point of NCLB, what exactly are we trying to produce in our public schools? Is it an independant, self-respecting and critically thinking individual, with a fair understanding of the tenets of Americanism as well as this country's history, an ability to communicate original thoughts and feelings in spoken and written form, the ability to compute relatively complex math problems, a general understanding of the sciences, and a good work ethic?



It is a fool's errand to think we will ever make geniuses that can pass any test. Not every student will go on to college, and some that do probably wouldn't know how to pay a bill or fix a leaky toilet even after they have attended that institution of higher education.



I think some people have unfair expectations of society and strive only for the top of the possibility chart when setting the course for our public education system. We need to get back to recongnizing that all kids are not the same going in and they won't all be the same coming out. I would rather a kid knows a fair amount of everything, a few things well, and have an understanding of how and where to find more when they need it. I don't think the American public schools are missing the mark with that.

 

[BiscuitintheBasket]

Why in the sam hell are there public school administrators making over $200,000 a year??? You really think your job commands that much money? Especially when you are regularly firing teachers to make budgets?

Excellent question. Keep in mind that department chairs\coordinators are at the same level and seem to escape the same firings. Good to be the king...

As to the point of NCLB, what exactly are we trying to produce in our public schools? Is it an independant, self-respecting and critically thinking individual, with a fair understanding of the tenets of Americanism as well as this country's history, an ability to communicate original thoughts and feelings in spoken and written form, the ability to compute relatively complex math problems, a general understanding of the sciences, and a good work ethic?

They completely missed mission of NCLB was to ensure that if a student passed 6th grade, they passed 6th grade. Extra sessions, remedial classes, even held back were supposed to be part of this....but teachers cannot appear to have students failing, otherwise it makes it look like they cannot teach. So what is a teacher to do? Yup pass the lemon.



Another failing is this assumption that we have to keep up with the education Joneses in the wold. If Japan is cranking out HS students that are learning Mathematical Graph theory (usually 300 level college class), then we need to. Oh we cannot even get students past Calc 3, eh, then get them to learn Calc as a freshman or 8th grader. Oh, they do not have the proper Algebra foundation, eh nevemind, they just need to pass Calc even if it is with 30% understanding. An so the chain goes.

 

[TSD]

Excellent question. Keep in mind that department chairs\coordinators are at the same level and seem to escape the same firings. Good to be the king...













They completely missed mission of NCLB was to ensure that if a student passed 6th grade, they passed 6th grade. Extra sessions, remedial classes, even held back were supposed to be part of this....but teachers cannot appear to have students failing, otherwise it makes it look like they cannot teach. So what is a teacher to do? Yup pass the lemon.



Another failing is this assumption that we have to keep up with the education Joneses in the wold. If Japan is cranking out HS students that are learning Mathematical Graph theory (usually 300 level college class), then we need to. Oh we cannot even get students past Calc 3, eh, then get them to learn Calc as a freshman or 8th grader. Oh, they do not have the proper Algebra foundation, eh nevemind, they just need to pass Calc even if it is with 30% understanding. An so the chain goes.

You can't do that in middle school, because your run of the mill middle school math teacher doesn't even learn that in college.

 

[Spunky Porkstacker]

Since we are talking about pay in the public school system and not "No Child Left Behind" I have to add this to the conversation:



Why in the sam hell are there public school administrators making over $200,000 a year??? You really think your job commands that much money? Especially when you are regularly firing teachers to make budgets?



As to the point of NCLB, what exactly are we trying to produce in our public schools? Is it an independant, self-respecting and critically thinking individual, with a fair understanding of the tenets of Americanism as well as this country's history, an ability to communicate original thoughts and feelings in spoken and written form, the ability to compute relatively complex math problems, a general understanding of the sciences, and a good work ethic?



It is a fool's errand to think we will ever make geniuses that can pass any test. Not every student will go on to college, and some that do probably wouldn't know how to pay a bill or fix a leaky toilet even after they have attended that institution of higher education.



I think some people have unfair expectations of society and strive only for the top of the possibility chart when setting the course for our public education system. We need to get back to recongnizing that all kids are not the same going in and they won't all be the same coming out. I would rather a kid knows a fair amount of everything, a few things well, and have an understanding of how and where to find more when they need it. I don't think the American public schools are missing the mark with that.

I've been asking this question for years, a lot of or all the administrators are into the 6 figure range. The superintendant of my daughters school district is'nt being renewed next year, his salary was at about 240,000 per. The next town to the north also is doing the same thing so it is finally being noticed.

 

[BigPete]

So Bisquit and I are on the same page. Check.



For a point of reference, I was a horrible student. I refused to ever focus on anything long enough to finish a single assignment. I assume now, looking back of course, that I completed about 50 of 2000-3000 individual assignments over the course of my entire K-12 experience. They tested me, found no learning disabilities, although I contest that I have a bit of ADD nowadays and I have long had a difficult time reading for more than ten or fifteen minutes at a time. My parents were asked they wanted me to be held back two different times in elementary school, they opted not to do so. I tried community college (COD) after I miraculously got out of Lyons Township and lasted about 6 semesters, mostly wasting my parents money. I then entered the Army, had a great four years where I excelled but didn't do dick more with school. I left the Army and become a defense IT contractor, and eight years later I am making over 100K with two subordinates and I have completed about 3/4s of a bachelors (still in work).

So, what does my 'school' experience tell everyone? That I would have been a bad news story under NCLB, but as a 33 year old man, I am very successful and most of you would agree (save IHF) that I am well spoken and well read.



So WTF, right....

 

[BigPete]

You can't do that in middle school, because your run of the mill middle school math teacher doesn't even learn that in college.

My college algebra refresher teacher was a full time high school teacher and readily admitted to us that he never passed calculous because he hit the wall. ( I couldn't pass that bullshit made up chinese language shit in college either...lol )



Good point though.

 

[BiscuitintheBasket]

You can't do that in middle school, because your run of the mill middle school math teacher doesn't even learn that in college.

Which fits into my point.

 

[BiscuitintheBasket]

So Bisquit and I are on the same page. Check.

We may disagree on things, but it is all in the spirit of the debate. I think the vast majority of us on this board (even MassHavcock), is pretty intelligent. Of course I was born in May, so maybe this is one of the few times that the bulls align

 

[JOVE23]

I think we need to get back to stressing the importance of vocational schools as a legitimate avenue and not "only fuckups and morons go there." Some people are just more suited for blue collar work, there's no shame in it.

 

[BiscuitintheBasket]

I think we need to get back to stressing the importance of vocational schools as a legitimate avenue and not "only fuckups and morons go there." Some people are just more suited for blue collar work, there's no shame in it.

Absolutely.

 

[supraman]

Dont have time to read the whole thread. About teachers' pay. The good ones need money thrown at them, the bad ones need to find a new line of work. I was lucky I had several good teachers in high school. Mr.Kaiser is still the smartest man I ever met. It was such a shame he just had enough bad kids to ruin it for everyone else because the man could drop some knowledge on you.

 

[MassHavoc]

We may disagree on things, but it is all in the spirit of the debate. I think the vast majority of us on this board (even MassHavcock), is pretty intelligent. Of course I was born in May, so maybe this is one of the few times that the bulls align

Taurus also here in my hizzie. One Bull to rule them all?

 

[MassHavoc]

Dont have time to read the whole thread. About teachers' pay. The good ones need money thrown at them, the bad ones need to find a new line of work. I was lucky I had several good teachers in high school. Mr.Kaiser is still the smartest man I ever met. It was such a shame he just had enough bad kids to ruin it for everyone else because the man could drop some knowledge on you.

One bad teacher can do more harm than 5 good teachers can do good.

 

[supraman]

Alright got some time for an expanded thought. I'd like to see the department of Education gone or at least just exist to only to handle student loans. It should be a state matter due to smaller bureaucracy but I think we need to do a much better job of teaching critical thinking. Also I think subjects such as history that teachers don't get enough time nor are they encouraged to go away from the textbook and teach alternative perceptions. Take the civil war, we all know what is taught in the class, but what about teaching the viewpoint of the southern states as well. Now the onus is on the teacher to teach both sides neutrally but that subject could make a lively debate amongst the students and that itself will strengthen critical thinking.



Certain subjects don't really match up well with that line of thinking like math and science. Both of those are pretty much cut and dry (also a good math teach needs six figures, that shit is hard to teach, my grade was entirely dependent on the ability of my teacher).



We need to get away from the focus on test grades. They don't help matters. I understand the bean counters want a score to measure but they hurt education, not help education. Teachers have to devote far too much time to teaching kids what's going to be on a test and it is just a matter of memorization most of the time.

 

[IceHogsFan]

Money does not solve the problem of our school systems. Case in point;



The City of Rockford has an annual budget of $350 million.



School District #205 serving Rockford is ranked as one of the worst school districts in the state.



School District #205 has an annual budget of $440 million.

 

[MassHavoc]

The great ones barrow, the best ones steal...



Find who's doing it the best. And do that.