Norway Killer

the canadian dream

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Don't bring up costs to these people rosh. They will just quote how much it costs to keep em alive in prison along with those serving time for minor harmless crimes like pot possession. It's all about costs so you better have evidence to prove it costs more to kill criminals than it is to imprison them.
 

the canadian dream

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Fucking phone and ap is enough to make me go postal. throw poor technology makers into that fire death pit also for making me mad and forcing me to do something stupid
 

Tater

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You don't live amongst an entire culture that has zero value for the average life. Meet some north or central American gang bangers and ask them if they give a shit about the guy standing next to them. They see death all the time and think it just "is". Unfortunately, there are millions of them in this hemisphere.



The only way to change it at this point is this: take a life in a criminal act and 'we' will take yours. Until that happens, no gang banger will stop shooting, because they don't fear going to jail. They like it there.



Totally agree.







Shhh, don't tell anyone I agreed with Pete.
 

the canadian dream

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That is a myth about their mindset and one from an outsider's perspective. They all know death happens around them...but they all have the "death won't get me" bragaddocio. Put more certainty in it and the deterant returns.



Who doesn't really? We all think we are invincible and smart enough to cheat death a lot of the times (esp in our youths). Or have false faith or unrealistic expectations in systems, communities and technology which will keep us safe and alive if trouble arises. If someone is walking around afraid of death and dieing 24 hours a day they are probably already dead. I'm sure more than half of us on these boards are lucky to be alive looking back on some close calls due to our own egos and stupidities or someone elses. Gang members of course have that attitude..again most are militant in their structures and ideals. The idea that once you show fear you are as good as dead isn't only a reserved idea and attitude of heros and those we want to celebrate..it's also shared by criminals.



Anyways that's really a different discussion. I know and understand what are you are saying.



Anywhoooo



This again really has nothing to do with the Norway incident and Breivik unless you consider the radical far right militant ideals he held as something "gang" related. Which some arguments could be made to do so.



"The purpose of the attacks was to save Norway and Western Europe from a Muslim takeover, and that the labour party had to pay the price for letting down Norway". A direct quote from Breivik himself. That's not a guy that sounds like he would be deterred by the threat of a death sentence...sounds like a guy who had a plan in place a purpose he believed strongly in and a determination to see it through. Most confessionals by mass murders (or any convicted murderer) never do sound like they would have been deterred by the thought of being killed during their actions or after them.



I will agree on one thing though as far as death sentences deterring violent crimes and it's unarguable. It certainly deteres those criminals who are put to death from ever committing crimes again. There is no extremely strong evidence or proof out there that it deteres others though (thats changing though don't get me wrong...and guys like Rosh and myself better be prepared to actually look at those results). For now lots of stronger statistics show the opposite which is strange. States with capital punishment have higher crime rates and stats like that. I do think there are other missing correlations though in those study results. Such as population, levels of poverty in those states, mental health in those states etc etc. Interesting none the less. We need to see stronger study results that support the theory that death sentences do deters crime. As of now those don't exist...as I said though they are coming. It's always going to be a debate this one. For now my mind is set on this



The death sentences probably can deter some violent criminal activities but it will certainly never end it all nor will it ever end the larger scale mass murders and violent acts (realistically I don't think anyone thinks it ever would anyways). Certainly stops a single person from engaging in criminal activities again...that's a given. And it certainly eliminates any chances of some people having the chance to be rehabilitated. Some which probably could be but some I agree are too far out of that sphere to even try. It's why I believe in case by case judgement and trial. I don't believe in wrapping every criminal up in a bundle and throwing them to execution. Can't believe anyone would be for that. Makes little sense to me but most things do make little sense to me.
 

the canadian dream

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There is no evidence that capital punishment works as a deterrent. All it does is cost money and sometimes even kill innocent people. And it does nothing to address the reasons crime even happens. I can't believe some of you would even suggest "extermination camps" as a solution, it's only a primitive "an eye for an eye" reaction. Maybe there is something to the brutalization theory, that says that in a society where capital punishment is allowed it devalues the human life further.



There are actual studies that are starting to support the theory more and more out there. Problem right now is most of them have been missing critical data and have been showing some flaws (many of the anti-capital punishment studies are with flaws also). Be prepared for a few stronger studies to be published which support the theory. They are getting stronger and stronger as we speak. There was a study done some years back by (wait I have to check the source as I don't know it off the top of my head)......Naci Mocan? It was showing some interesting results supporting the theory. It never really got much publicity because it was dissected to death by skeptics (never knew that was a bad thing in the sciences and stats but apparently it is to some).
 

Pez68

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I bet capital punishment would be really effective in deterring third strike offenders. Instead of feeding, housing, clothing, and educating these pieces of shit for the rest of their lives, what if we just started executing them? I bet you'd see a lot less repeat offenders coming to prisons. But then, someone would obviously have a problem with this, even though it makes more sense than the current system.
 

the canadian dream

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I bet capital punishment would be really effective in deterring third strike offenders. Instead of feeding, housing, clothing, and educating these pieces of shit for the rest of their lives, what if we just started executing them? I bet you'd see a lot less repeat offenders coming to prisons. But then, someone would obviously have a problem with this, even though it makes more sense than the current system.



Makes more sense than a one strike you are dead system to me. A second strike you are out rule makes more sense. Those opposed to it would be more so those who don't believe in second or third chances and who want instant gratification. Also those who would feel a sense of guilt in allowing someone a second chance only to see that criminal fail and possibly ruin others lives which could have been avoided if action would have been taken the first time around.



I think something like this would need some extreme serious non-interest group related study and statistics with regards to what the current number of repeat criminal activities exists after the initial time served in detention. Would be a very complicated and complex study full of different variables and correlations to consider. Would be expensive as hell also. Would never be able to keep the interest groups out of it. Would be a hell of an interesting read though.
 

Variable

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People can and have debated for years about this, and there won't ever be any real change in what most people are arguing for as everything stands as it is right now, no matter which route you want to go. Whether you go with a 3 strike rule and start executing people, or start using the death penalty more often, or whatever you want, whether you want to go with the Conservative's idea or the Liberal's idea, it's just moving the furniture around in the room. We cannot fix fundamental flaws in society by changing our punishment of them, you have to address them at the root cause. And unfortunately, that encompasses E.V.E.R.Y.O.N.E.



When as a society we preach honesty, good will and equality in our dealings within our lives but instead find out it's needed to practice deceit, fraud and violence in order to get ahead, these are the consequences. It changes in form as the times change (going back hundreds and hundreds of years from the fucking Inquisition to street gangs to Wall Street banksters), but it's essentially all the same. That's what is perpetuated in our world. You cannot expect change for the "better" when the "better" is what doesn't work, is what keeps you down in this system. Talking about a massive, worldwide culture change. Top to bottom. That's the only way. Good luck with that. As George Carlin once said "The Public sucks, **** hope. **** hope."
 

BigPete

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It is impossible to find any example of the positive effects of capital punishment because the legal practice has always been riddled with massive obstacles that prolong the outcome and see it applied on a very small scale.

This is argument against its use, "because we have no proof it works", is just as bad as an American conservative claiming trickle down economics works. You can't really prove or disprove the notion because there will always be extenuating circumstances that convolute the equation.

Show me any state in the nation where capital punishment has been applied for a long period of time without several pervsions of the process occurring. Did people in Texas get wrongly convicted and put to death? Most definitely. But there are also estimates that Texas has wrongly incarcerated thousands of people over the last century.
 

Variable

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No, I'm not arguing against it, or for it.It's pointless. There's no side to take. You still have the same fundamental problems. Those don't change because there's a death penalty, it doesn't go away. It's not that simple.



And how the hell did I type benevolence instead of violence.
 

TSD

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I have a friend at work with the same argument. I would of course feel bad if it happened to a loved one but on the whole not feel all that bad knowing some innocent people were getting euthanized. I ask this all the time when faced with this argument but where is your outrage and ACTION against all the innocent people stuck in jail right now?

I would like to think that a consequence like putting innocent people to death would in some small way make the criminal prosecution process more honest. Imagine...



As I said, its all fine and good until that innocent person is you. I personally don't want to get sent to oblivion despite the fact I wouldnt exist to care once it happened.
 

BigPete

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As I said, its all fine and good until that innocent person is you. I personally don't want to get sent to oblivion despite the fact I wouldnt exist to care once it happened.

I would rather not be stuck in jail indefinitely.
 

TSD

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I would rather not be stuck in jail indefinitely.



Me either, but I wouldn't wanna get killed if there were a chance I could be exonerated.
 

KMChechASS69r

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Even though there is a plethora of information that suggests that a majority of legal professionals believe that is is more costly to seek the DP, than to house a prisoner for the rest of his/her life without parole, the main reasoning being that capital cases consume more time and resources in a nut shell, to ensure that an innocent person is not wrongfully convicted. Being a fairly intelligent person I can accept that.



Having said that, I still feel that we as a society, with the system we have in place are not providing effective deterrents to heinous acts. As some will say that there is no overwhelming evidence that the DP is an effective deterent to these acts,cnor is there any evidence that attempt to rehabilitate those who would commit such acts is effective either. IMO, it's impossible. Especially people like Jeffrey Dahmer, John Wayne Gacey, Ed Gien and the ilk. Like the gate keeper in the Wizard of Oz said, "ain't no way, ain't no how!" So back to my original statement, burn em' all!
 

the canadian dream

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People can and have debated for years about this, and there won't ever be any real change in what most people are arguing for as everything stands as it is right now, no matter which route you want to go. Whether you go with a 3 strike rule and start executing people, or start using the death penalty more often, or whatever you want, whether you want to go with the Conservative's idea or the Liberal's idea, it's just moving the furniture around in the room. We cannot fix fundamental flaws in society by changing our punishment of them, you have to address them at the root cause. And unfortunately, that encompasses E.V.E.R.Y.O.N.E.



When as a society we preach honesty, good will and equality in our dealings within our lives but instead find out it's needed to practice deceit, fraud and violence in order to get ahead, these are the consequences. It changes in form as the times change (going back hundreds and hundreds of years from the fucking Inquisition to street gangs to Wall Street banksters), but it's essentially all the same. That's what is perpetuated in our world. You cannot expect change for the "better" when the "better" is what doesn't work, is what keeps you down in this system. Talking about a massive, worldwide culture change. Top to bottom. That's the only way. Good luck with that. As George Carlin once said "The Public sucks, **** hope. **** hope."



I'll agree with this. Good post Variable.
 

Rex

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There is no evidence that capital punishment works as a deterrent. All it does is cost money and sometimes even kill innocent people. And it does nothing to address the reasons crime even happens. I can't believe some of you would even suggest "extermination camps" as a solution, it's only a primitive "an eye for an eye" reaction. Maybe there is something to the brutalization theory, that says that in a society where capital punishment is allowed it devalues the human life further.



Does it cost more money than giving them free room and board, and three full meals a day?
 

Rex

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I'm not so liberal afterall, eh?



I was just thinking that lol.



Though, I guess you're a US Liberal. Canadian BigPete would want to take better care of the Criminal than the Victim.
 

BigPete

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I was just thinking that lol.



Though, I guess you're a US Liberal. Canadian BigPete would want to take better care of the Criminal than the Victim.

No, I would have taken people like Frost, put them in a box, and let people piss on him fort-nightly. And he didn't even kill anyone. He just ruined them mentally.
 

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