Official Carry-over Argument thread

[RamiTheBullsFan]

When a thread starts to get extremely off-topic, abandon the other thread and bring it over into this one. It's worth a shot.

 

[97Bulls]

When a thread starts to get extremely off-topic, abandon the other thread and bring it over into this one. It's worth a shot.

I'm game. Can you form a better argument as to why you feel mutombo deserved the dpoy in 95 over pippen?

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I'm game. Can you form a better argument as to why you feel mutombo deserved the dpoy in 95 over pippen?

I said that defending the perimeter isn't as important as defending the rim. That's one of the most fundamental principles in the game.

 

[97Bulls]

I said that defending the perimeter isn't as important as defending the rim. That's one of the most fundamental principles in the game.

Well it dint bode well for the nuggets. Cuz their defense wasn't anything special

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Well it dint bode well for the nuggets. Cuz their defense wasn't anything special

Do we want to get into why that is the case?

That is getting off-topic on what is already off-topic.

The Bulls defenders (not named Pippen) were a LOT better than the Nuggets defenders (not named Mutombo).

And the defensive schemes in Chicago were a LOT better than the ones imposed in Denver.

How about you answer this question- do you agree that interior defense is more important than exterior defense?

 

[97Bulls]

Do we want to get into why that is the case?

That is getting off-topic on what is already off-topic.

The Bulls defenders (not named Pippen) were a LOT better than the Nuggets defenders (not named Mutombo).

And the defensive schemes in Chicago were a LOT better than the ones imposed in Denver.

How about you answer this question- do you agree that interior defense is more important than exterior defense?

Under normal circumstances, yes I feel big men defending the paint is more effective. But its obvious, pippens impact on the bulls was much greater than mutombos.

And as far as schemes, the bulls scheme was pippen do everything.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Under normal circumstances, yes I feel big men defending the paint is more effective. But its obvious, pippens impact on the bulls was much greater than mutombos.

And as far as schemes, the bulls scheme was pippen do everything.

That is simple-minded knowledge you bring to the table about schemes and you are flat out mistaken about Pippen's impact on the Bulls' defense being more important than Mutombo's impact on the Nuggets' defense.

And under ANY circumstance, the most fundamentally important player on defense is the guy defending the basket.

 

[97Bulls]

That is simple-minded knowledge you bring to the table about schemes and you are flat out mistaken about Pippen's impact on the Bulls' defense being more important than Mutombo's impact on the Nuggets' defense.

And under ANY circumstance, the most fundamentally important player on defense is the guy defending the basket.

Lol that's not totally true. You put a great defensive center with a bunch of scrub perimeter players and that center wil stay in foul trouble. I feel having great defensive bigs are most important for contoling the boards. As well as covering the defensive perimter mishaps,

But I'm intrigued coach rami. Tell me a defensive scheme the bulls would use that's so complicated.

 

[eternityw]

If we are talking about defense then it is team effort, every player is important and defending his guy and responsible for it. "Defending the rim" could happen when perimeter player has lost his opponent or when opponent team is attacking by post-up ... So every position is important but perimeter defense needs to be more intensiveness and to have more movement from defenders. Plus pick-n-roll schemes need to be defended smart... And Scottie was able to defend 4 or 5 positions, pick-n-rolls, etc. Mutumbo was slow and his position was under the rim only.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Lol that's not totally true. You put a great defensive center with a bunch of scrub perimeter players and that center wil stay in foul trouble. I feel having great defensive bigs are most important for contoling the boards. As well as covering the defensive perimter mishaps,

But I'm intrigued coach rami. Tell me a defensive scheme the bulls would use that's so complicated.

You are wrong. It is totally true. If you had to take one player off of the court and play 4-vs-5, you would make sure that one of those 4 players are defending the basket. Therefore what I said was completely true. Having someone to defend the rim is the most important facet of defense on a basketball team. And if that player is arguably the greatest shot-blocker in the world, that makes him that much more dominant as a defensive player.

And if you put a great defensive interior player with a bunch of scrub perimeter defenders, that will most make the exterior defenders look better by default. Because opposing offensive player are still going to be extremely reluctant to come inside when they know that Mt. Mutombo is waiting to reject you at the basket. It is a testament to the Nuggets' defense that they were as good on defense as they were with Abdul-Rauf, Reggie Williams, and aging Dale Ellis, Bryant Stith, and a rookie Jalen Rose getting the heavy bulk of minutes - with THREE different head coaches over the coach of that one season! If that won't make you weak on defense, I don't know what will.

Phil Jackson is widely acknowledged as one of the greatest defensive minds of all-time. He had amazing talent throughout his career as a coach but he would focus in on slowing the pace down and trapping opponents before they could ever get to the rim. And when the ball did manage to get down-low, the Bulls' players were able to re-group and clog the lane and contest the post scorer nearly every time.

And this was in an era which allowed hand-checking. Pippen would have still been a great perimeter defender regardless because of his length and ability in the passing lanes. But Mutombo was just an amazing interior defender and did so without fouling out very often at all.

Pippen could do a little bit of defending the rim (especially from the weak side) but Mutombo, Olajuwon, Robinson, Ewing, and many others were on another level than Pippen in that regard.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

If we are talking about defense then it is team effort, every player is important and defending his guy and responsible for it. "Defending the rim" could happen when perimeter player has lost his opponent or when opponent team is attacking by post-up ... So every position is important but perimeter defense needs to be more intensiveness and to have more movement from defenders. Plus pick-n-roll schemes need to be defended smart... And Scottie was able to defend 4 or 5 positions, pick-n-rolls, etc. Mutumbo was slow and his position was under the rim only.

Defending the basket is the most vital role on the defense. That is where the highest percentage field-goal attempts are taken. The entire method of good fundamental defense is to make a team shoot the ball from as far away as possible. It really isn't all that complicated at all.

If you guys can't even admit that Mutombo's position is much more vital to have good defense from than Scottie's position then you have already shown you are unreasonable, un-knowledgeable, and biased.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I mean- do you guys seriously think I'm ragging on Pippen here?

Saying there were only a few great big men who were better defensive players than Scottie Pippen is not an insult towards Pippen at all. If anything, that is a compliment towards Pippen. He was a perimeter player who was versatile enough to be in the conversation with big men in what was probably the era with the greatest abundance of defensive players of all-time.

Pippen was the hands-down greatest perimeter defensive player in the 1990's. He could guard any of the 3 positions with ease and even could guard most PFs and a few centers.

That doesn't mean that he deserved the DPOY award though. Does Andrei Kirilenko deserve that award? He is even MORE of a versatile defender than Pippen was.

Pippen was a great defender. But when you look at the defense of Alonzo Mourning, Dikembe Mutombo, Hakeem Olajuwon, and David Robinson... it is no shame being second place to any of those guys.

 

[clonetrooper264]

I mean- do you guys seriously think I'm ragging on Pippen here?

Saying there were only a few great big men who were better defensive players than Scottie Pippen is not an insult towards Pippen at all. If anything, that is a compliment towards Pippen. He was a perimeter player who was versatile enough to be in the conversation with big men in what was probably the era with the greatest abundance of defensive players of all-time.

Pippen was the hands-down greatest perimeter defensive player in the 1990's. He could guard any of the 3 positions with ease and even could guard most PFs and a few centers.

That doesn't mean that he deserved the DPOY award though. Does Andrei Kirilenko deserve that award? He is even MORE of a versatile defender than Pippen was.

Pippen was a great defender. But when you look at the defense of Alonzo Mourning, Dikembe Mutombo, Hakeem Olajuwon, and David Robinson... it is no shame being second place to any of those guys.

Eh...idk if AK47 is more versatile. I guess he could guard 4s better than Pippen and he's a better shot blocker, but he's not quite quick enough to guard PGs. Perhaps it's a matter of opinion there.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Eh...idk if AK47 is more versatile. I guess he could guard 4s better than Pippen and he's a better shot blocker, but he's not quite quick enough to guard PGs. Perhaps it's a matter of opinion there.

I'd prefer Pippen guarding PGs too, but Andrei can very well defend the PG position as well.

Pippen could guard the 1, 2, 3, some 4, and a little 5.

Kirilenko can guard the 1 somewhat effectively, 2, 3, 4, and the 5 somewhat better than Pippen could.

 

[97Bulls]

You are wrong. It is totally true. If you had to take one player off of the court and play 4-vs-5, you would make sure that one of those 4 players are defending the basket. Therefore what I said was completely true. Having someone to defend the rim is the most important facet of defense on a basketball team. And if that player is arguably the greatest shot-blocker in the world, that makes him that much more dominant as a defensive player.
But basketball isn't played 4 on 5 so its a moot point.

And if you put a great defensive interior player with a bunch of scrub perimeter defenders, that will most make the exterior defenders look better by default. Because opposing offensive player are still going to be extremely reluctant to come inside when they know that Mt. Mutombo is waiting to reject you at the basket. It is a testament to the Nuggets' defense that they were as good on defense as they were with Abdul-Rauf, Reggie Williams, and aging Dale Ellis, Bryant Stith, and a rookie Jalen Rose getting the heavy bulk of minutes - with THREE different head coaches over the coach of that one season! If that won't make you weak on defense, I don't know what will.
Actually, they weren't very good as a unit. Even though they had guys that weren't. Considered bad defensively. Reggie Williams wasn't a bad defender. Nor was bryant stith or robert pack.

Phil Jackson is widely acknowledged as one of the greatest defensive minds of all-time. He had amazing talent throughout his career as a coach but he would focus in on slowing the pace down and trapping opponents before they could ever get to the rim. And when the ball did manage to get down-low, the Bulls' players were able to re-group and clog the lane and contest the post scorer nearly every time.
Lol and scottie pippen made his philosophy successfull. And like a coach funneling the opposition to a great center, jackson centered his defense around pippen. And his abilty to be effective at every facet of defense

And this was in an era which allowed hand-checking. Pippen would have still been a great perimeter defender regardless because of his length and ability in the passing lanes. But Mutombo was just an amazing interior defender and did so without fouling out very often at all.
and mutombo played in an era when centers didn't have to worry about the defensive 3 second rule.
Pippen could do a little bit of defending the rim (especially from the weak side) but Mutombo, Olajuwon, Robinson, Ewing, and many others were on another level than Pippen in that regard.

Based on pippens impact, id rank him right up there with dominant defensive centers. His ability shut down the oppositions PG, trap, help, play man, post defense etc was just that good. And the facts are the stats and results (6 championships) show it. He deserved the dpoy award in 95.

 

[97Bulls]

If we are talking about defense then it is team effort, every player is important and defending his guy and responsible for it. "Defending the rim" could happen when perimeter player has lost his opponent or when opponent team is attacking by post-up ... So every position is important but perimeter defense needs to be more intensiveness and to have more movement from defenders. Plus pick-n-roll schemes need to be defended smart... And Scottie was able to defend 4 or 5 positions, pick-n-rolls, etc. Mutumbo was slow and his position was under the rim only.

Exactly.

 

[97Bulls]

I mean- do you guys seriously think I'm ragging on Pippen here?

Saying there were only a few great big men who were better defensive players than Scottie Pippen is not an insult towards Pippen at all. If anything, that is a compliment towards Pippen. He was a perimeter player who was versatile enough to be in the conversation with big men in what was probably the era with the greatest abundance of defensive players of all-time.

Pippen was the hands-down greatest perimeter defensive player in the 1990's. He could guard any of the 3 positions with ease and even could guard most PFs and a few centers.

That doesn't mean that he deserved the DPOY award though. Does Andrei Kirilenko deserve that award? He is even MORE of a versatile defender than Pippen was.

Pippen was a great defender. But when you look at the defense of Alonzo Mourning, Dikembe Mutombo, Hakeem Olajuwon, and David Robinson... it is no shame being second place to any of those guys.

Lol don't be a fool, andre kirelenko is nowhere near the defender pippen was. He's a very good defender but not the caliber of pippen. Id say he's a poor mans pippen defensively. And definately not as versitle.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

But basketball isn't played 4 on 5 so its a moot point.

Actually, they weren't very good as a unit. Even though they had guys that weren't. Considered bad defensively. Reggie Williams wasn't a bad defender. Nor was bryant stith or robert pack.

Reggie Williams and Stith were not very good defenders if, by your standards, B.J. Armstrong and Toni Kukoc weren't. And you also went out and called Luc Longley a bust when you were going off about the defensive talent the Bulls had. And completely ignored that he was a very solid defensive stopper and low-post defender. And you completely ignored Ron Harper- who was always one of the best perimeter players in the NBA. The system in which the team is run under is the most important thing as a whole when it comes to team defense. Look at Tom Thibodeau this year. Would you undermine the changes he brought to the team from last year? Look at what changed in terms of the roster- nothing except the addition of Carlos Boozer (one of the worst defenders at his position), the addition of Kyle Korver (one of the worst defenders at his position), and Ronnie Brewer, Keith Bogans, and Omer Asik (some of the better defenders at their position). The result: Undisputed top 1-4 defense in the NBA last season. Under Vinny Del Negro, they were mediocre on team defense. That should tell you the story about what a coach can do for a team when it comes to defense. The Denver Nuggets had three of them that season...

And you completely missed the point. The point was that the most important place on a basketball court for a team to have at least one defender is under the basket.

That is where teams get the highest percentage baskets. It is more important to have a good defender down-low than it is to have one defender up higher.

There are 3-4 other men who guard up high. There are 1-2 men who always guard down-low. And one of them is always directly under the basket and watching the lane to cut off the penetrator.

Lol and scottie pippen made his philosophy successfull. And like a coach funneling the opposition to a great center, jackson centered his defense around pippen. And his abilty to be effective at every facet of defense

That statement is not true. And I already discredited this ^above.

and mutombo played in an era when centers didn't have to worry about the defensive 3 second rule.

That argument is 100% irrelevant and you're actually not realizing this, but you are helping make my case for me. That actually made the center position even MORE valuable/important in that era because of the fact NBA centers could get away with standing in the lane as long as they wanted. That makes it even easier to understand the point I'm making about how much more valuable the center position was defensively than the position Pippen played.

Based on pippens impact, id rank him right up there with dominant defensive centers. His ability shut down the oppositions PG, trap, help, play man, post defense etc was just that good. And the facts are the stats and results (6 championships) show it. He deserved the dpoy award in 95.

Pippen was one of four other players on the court for the Bulls during those 6 championships. A championship is a team award. Don't be fooled. If Jordan had the supporting cast, and coaching system, of the Charlotte Bobcats for his entire career, he wouldn't have even won one title. So number of rings is a mute point.

And I agree that Pippen is the only non-big man who could be thrown in with the names of the great big men of all-time strictly when it comes to defense. But that doesn't make him the best. You will not find many people, who are non-Bulls' fans, who will claim that Pippen is a better defensive player than Bill Russell, Hakeem Olajuwon, Dikembe Mutombo, David Robinson, Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, or Ben Wallace. But his name should probably come right after. And before a lot of other great stoppers in the NBA history. But not the greatest stoppers. There is no perimeter defender who could guard you better than Pippen. But there were some big men who could.

Lol don't be a fool, andre kirelenko is nowhere near the defender pippen was.

I never said that.

Putting words in my mouth.

He's a very good defender but not the caliber of pippen.

Duh.

Id say he's a poor mans pippen defensively.

I wouldn't even go that far.

And definately not as versitle.

Yes. He is. Andrei Kirilenko can more effectively play all 5 positions on the floor than Pippen can.

PG- Pippen can defend that position like one of the best PGs would. There are only a few number of players that I would have guard a player like Magic Johnson before Pippen. Gary Payton and maybe a small list of others.

PG- Kirilenko would be a mediocre defender of the PG position because he lacks the foot speed. He can make up a lot of that with his length though. He would be able to keep many PGs in front of him.

SG- Pippen is the best defender of the SG position as we've ever seen in the league. Kirilenko would be one of the better ones.

SF- Pippen is the best defender of the SF position as we've ever seen. AK47 would be one of the best ones but nowhere near Pippen.

PF- Pippen has the strength advantage and leaping advantage over AK47 here but I'd give AK47 the slight rebounding and shot-blocking (and height) advantage here.

C- AK47 has a distinct advantage at this position because he is much better at defending the rim than Pippen and has a height advantage in the lane. Neither one would be ideal at all to defend this position because Pippen can't block shots that well at all. And Kirilenko is not even as strong as Pippen and could be backed down easily (like Pippen).

There's a reason guys like Hakeem and Robinson never guarded the perimeter (and they very well could have with Pip and the very best of them). Any coach would laugh at the idea of a guy like Hakeem and Robinson anywhere regularly except under the basket. When you have a shot-blocking/altering force of that magnitude, it is common sense to put them under the basket. Because that is the MOST IMPORTANT SPOT to have effective DEFENSE at on a basketball court!

 

[BMR31]

Reggie Williams and Stith were not very good defenders if, by your standards, B.J. Armstrong and Toni Kukoc weren't. And you also went out and called Luc Longley a bust when you were going off about the defensive talent the Bulls had. And completely ignored that he was a very solid defensive stopper and low-post defender. And you completely ignored Ron Harper- who was always one of the best perimeter players in the NBA. The system in which the team is run under is the most important thing as a whole when it comes to team defense. Look at Tom Thibodeau this year. Would you undermine the changes he brought to the team from last year? Look at what changed in terms of the roster- nothing except the addition of Carlos Boozer (one of the worst defenders at his position), the addition of Kyle Korver (one of the worst defenders at his position), and Ronnie Brewer, Keith Bogans, and Omer Asik (some of the better defenders at their position). The result: Undisputed top 1-4 defense in the NBA last season. Under Vinny Del Negro, they were mediocre on team defense. That should tell you the story about what a coach can do for a team when it comes to defense. The Denver Nuggets had three of them that season...

And you completely missed the point. The point was that the most important place on a basketball court for a team to have at least one defender is under the basket.

That is where teams get the highest percentage baskets. It is more important to have a good defender down-low than it is to have one defender up higher.

There are 3-4 other men who guard up high. There are 1-2 men who always guard down-low. And one of them is always directly under the basket and watching the lane to cut off the penetrator.



That statement is not true. And I already discredited this ^above.



That argument is 100% irrelevant and you're actually not realizing this, but you are helping make my case for me. That actually made the center position even MORE valuable/important in that era because of the fact NBA centers could get away with standing in the lane as long as they wanted. That makes it even easier to understand the point I'm making about how much more valuable the center position was defensively than the position Pippen played.



Pippen was one of four other players on the court for the Bulls during those 6 championships. A championship is a team award. Don't be fooled. If Jordan had the supporting cast, and coaching system, of the Charlotte Bobcats for his entire career, he wouldn't have even won one title. So number of rings is a mute point.

And I agree that Pippen is the only non-big man who could be thrown in with the names of the great big men of all-time strictly when it comes to defense. But that doesn't make him the best. You will not find many people, who are non-Bulls' fans, who will claim that Pippen is a better defensive player than Bill Russell, Hakeem Olajuwon, Dikembe Mutombo, David Robinson, Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, or Ben Wallace. But his name should probably come right after. And before a lot of other great stoppers in the NBA history. But not the greatest stoppers. There is no perimeter defender who could guard you better than Pippen. But there were some big men who could.



I never said that.

Putting words in my mouth.



Duh.



I wouldn't even go that far.



Yes. He is. Andrei Kirilenko can more effectively play all 5 positions on the floor than Pippen can.

PG- Pippen can defend that position like one of the best PGs would. There are only a few number of players that I would have guard a player like Magic Johnson before Pippen. Gary Payton and maybe a small list of others.

PG- Kirilenko would be a mediocre defender of the PG position because he lacks the foot speed. He can make up a lot of that with his length though. He would be able to keep many PGs in front of him.

SG- Pippen is the best defender of the SG position as we've ever seen in the league. Kirilenko would be one of the better ones.

SF- Pippen is the best defender of the SF position as we've ever seen. AK47 would be one of the best ones but nowhere near Pippen.

PF- Pippen has the strength advantage and leaping advantage over AK47 here but I'd give AK47 the slight rebounding and shot-blocking (and height) advantage here.

C- AK47 has a distinct advantage at this position because he is much better at defending the rim than Pippen and has a height advantage in the lane. Neither one would be ideal at all to defend this position because Pippen can't block shots that well at all. And Kirilenko is not even as strong as Pippen and could be backed down easily (like Pippen).

There's a reason guys like Hakeem and Robinson never guarded the perimeter (and they very well could have with Pip and the very best of them). Any coach would laugh at the idea of a guy like Hakeem and Robinson anywhere regularly except under the basket. When you have a shot-blocking/altering force of that magnitude, it is common sense to put them under the basket. Because that is the MOST IMPORTANT SPOT to have effective DEFENSE at on a basketball court!

LMFAO MY GOD. Bro, i will ask again. Why the **** are you on this site 20 hours a day? There cant be one legitimate answer. Seriously........:smh:

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

LMFAO MY GOD. Bro, i will ask again. Why the **** are you on this site 20 hours a day? There cant be one legitimate answer. Seriously........:smh:

Even if I was on this site 20 hours per-day (which I'm not), only a hypocritical fool would be able to use that insult against me. Because that would, by all mathematical accounts, would need to mean that you, sir, are, in fact, also on the site in question 20 hours per-day.