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LordKOTL

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Seabrook, and the defense as a whole, have much bigger problems that just playing with rookies. The past 2 years Crawford has been keeping them afloat.
 

MassHavoc

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Seabrook, and the defense as a whole, have much bigger problems that just playing with rookies. The past 2 years Crawford has been keeping them afloat.

Ohhh now you've done it, you're not supposed to praise crawford.... not at that salary. Be gone with you.
 

LordKOTL

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The numbers prove me right.

For both 2015 and 2016 Crawford posted a .924 SV%. Over both years total, his SV% is 3rd in the league among starters behind Schneider (.925) and Price (.937).

In the same 2 years combined the 'hawks en masse were 22nd in SA/GP at 30.5: Tied with Philly, and better than only the Oil, Canucks, Leafs, Coyotes, Jackets, Sens, Avs, and Sabres. Further, it's not some anomaly that can be explained away by a player: the 2015 'hawks were at 30.2 SA/GP and the 2016 were at 30.8 SA/GP--there was no significant core loss in those years and the ore players remained steady. For comparison: in 2014 the 'hawks were 4th with 27.2 SA/GP and in 2013 they were 4th with 26.2.

Same general core of defensive players: Keith, Seabs, Hjammer, Toews, Hossa, Kruger, etc. The only significant defensive loss was Sharp and Oduya, but they barely made a scratch after they left. The team's shot suppression (a key aspect of defense) went from being able to protect almost any G, to exposing them like a man getting a prostate exam.

Yet, Crawford rose to the challenge with a Jennings trophy and was a strong Vezina candidate last season.

Last season Crawford and Schneider played 58 games and both finished with a .924 SV%. The difference is Crawford saw 1718 shots, while Schneider saw 1597. It equates out to 9 more goals Crawford let in simply because he saw more rubber. Had Crawford saved those more goals, he would have been riding a .929 SV%--which would have been 2nd in the league.

Moving forward I think the big thing is: How much better--realistically--can we expect Crawford to be? Over the past 2 seasons he's been 3rd amongst starting netminders in SV% and has seen a metric Shit-tonne of shots. If the ultimate goal is scoring goals and preventing goals against, to expect him to be better would be expecting performances on par with guys like Price and Lundqvist--FHoF performances: Out of a 6 for 6 netminder.

On the flipside, Keith is all-world at D. Seabrook should be up there with his defensive game. Toews is a 2-time Selke. Hossa got screwed out of winning a Selke simply because he plays wing. Hjammer is probably one of the best pure defensive defensemen in the game today, and Kruger is a great defensive forward--among everyone else we've iced. Yet the team combined is bottom-ten in the league at preventing shots over the past 2 years.

Kempny, Pokka, and Campbell aside: The 30M we're paying our returning defensive-style (not position) players needs to pay some dividends like it hasn't the past 2 years. Even preventing 2 shots per game (which is not unrealistic give who we have and what we're paying them) would put the 'hawks back in the top 10 for SA/GP, and given Crawford was the reason we pulled in the Jennings in 2015 and were 10th in GA/GP in spite of being 24th in SA/GP, that wuld pay huge dividends and take some pressure off the O.
 

Raskolnikov

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I agree 100%, I'm not sure what Crow is capable of with a full defense. He been covering that weakness in depth for 3 years
 

MassHavoc

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The numbers prove me right.

For both 2015 and 2016 Crawford posted a .924 SV%. Over both years total, his SV% is 3rd in the league among starters behind Schneider (.925) and Price (.937).

In the same 2 years combined the 'hawks en masse were 22nd in SA/GP at 30.5: Tied with Philly, and better than only the Oil, Canucks, Leafs, Coyotes, Jackets, Sens, Avs, and Sabres. Further, it's not some anomaly that can be explained away by a player: the 2015 'hawks were at 30.2 SA/GP and the 2016 were at 30.8 SA/GP--there was no significant core loss in those years and the ore players remained steady. For comparison: in 2014 the 'hawks were 4th with 27.2 SA/GP and in 2013 they were 4th with 26.2.

Same general core of defensive players: Keith, Seabs, Hjammer, Toews, Hossa, Kruger, etc. The only significant defensive loss was Sharp and Oduya, but they barely made a scratch after they left. The team's shot suppression (a key aspect of defense) went from being able to protect almost any G, to exposing them like a man getting a prostate exam.

Yet, Crawford rose to the challenge with a Jennings trophy and was a strong Vezina candidate last season.

Last season Crawford and Schneider played 58 games and both finished with a .924 SV%. The difference is Crawford saw 1718 shots, while Schneider saw 1597. It equates out to 9 more goals Crawford let in simply because he saw more rubber. Had Crawford saved those more goals, he would have been riding a .929 SV%--which would have been 2nd in the league.

Moving forward I think the big thing is: How much better--realistically--can we expect Crawford to be? Over the past 2 seasons he's been 3rd amongst starting netminders in SV% and has seen a metric Shit-tonne of shots. If the ultimate goal is scoring goals and preventing goals against, to expect him to be better would be expecting performances on par with guys like Price and Lundqvist--FHoF performances: Out of a 6 for 6 netminder.

On the flipside, Keith is all-world at D. Seabrook should be up there with his defensive game. Toews is a 2-time Selke. Hossa got screwed out of winning a Selke simply because he plays wing. Hjammer is probably one of the best pure defensive defensemen in the game today, and Kruger is a great defensive forward--among everyone else we've iced. Yet the team combined is bottom-ten in the league at preventing shots over the past 2 years.

Kempny, Pokka, and Campbell aside: The 30M we're paying our returning defensive-style (not position) players needs to pay some dividends like it hasn't the past 2 years. Even preventing 2 shots per game (which is not unrealistic give who we have and what we're paying them) would put the 'hawks back in the top 10 for SA/GP, and given Crawford was the reason we pulled in the Jennings in 2015 and were 10th in GA/GP in spite of being 24th in SA/GP, that wuld pay huge dividends and take some pressure off the O.
Just curious, since I know you're like playing with the number, I go back to my original sarcasm in that most people seem to equate their complaints with him to the salary for some reason. Can you think of any logical way to equate statistics to salary in order to see who is under over paid? I mean, you could just say well, he's paid less than price, and the same as Schneider... so he's getting about the right value, but does that really tell the whole story?
 

LordKOTL

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For 1 mass: I was fully aware of your sarcasm--I just wanted to stick it to the last bastion out there that think Crawford's great play is a product of his defense...at least anymore.

I don't think there's a hard-and-fast way to perfectly equate salary to expectation...it's going to be opinion. Even in my post above: our defensive player core (with respect to the player's game type, not position) in my opinion should have more impact on the "keeping the puck out of the net" part of the game en masse than Crawford does--especially since you're looking at 30-ish Million over 6 guys as opposed to 6M over 1 guy.

But IMHO there's just too many variables over the whole salary vs. expected output to be hard and fast:
  • The cap ceiling varies over the years. Khabi in his 1st stint with us made 500k more than Crawford does now, but his 6.5M took up a larger percentage of the cap than Toews' 10.5 does now. Ergo, a "6M player" means a different thing year-in/year out. At one point it was a franchise player. Now, it's a fringe-to-middle core piece.
  • Duration of the deal plays a factor. It's not just as time goes on the cap hit becomes better as long as the cap rises (think Keith), but even for long deals for older players, a lower cap hit now can hamstring the team later on (think Seabrook near the tail end of his deal). Factoring this in, do you look at the player's output over the duration, or play level vs. cap hit in the year in question?
  • Team needs. If you compare Crawford and Schneider (used because they're both 6M, and both pitched .924 SV% last year), the needs of each team were different. The general feel around NHL fandom is that the 'hawks O is better than the Devil's, and at least in player names, the D should be close. The numbers indicated that the 'hawks were 10th in SF/GP, and 6th in GF/GP, whereas the Devils were last in both stats. For complete defense, the 'hawks were 24th in SA/GP and 10th in GA/GP; the Devils ranked 8th in both.

    In terms of numbers then, the 'hawks need for a 6M netminder in actually is to bail out the defense and give the O enough chance to score. The Devils need for a 6M netminder is to assist the D in completely shutting the door since the O is less likely to score. You can't really get an accurate comparison of expectation vs. salary with those two different metrics
  • Name factor. When you think Duncan Keith, you think one of if not the best defense an of this era. This past year he was ehh. 2011 he was as-bad as Seabrook this year and the excuses came out of the woodwork, or they're completely blasted depending on fan/media disposition. Around the league there's a perception of Rinne being a better netminder than Crawford. This wasn't the case this year: The Stingy Nashville D was top in SA/GP, and they were 14th in GA/GP. Rinne also had a 2012-Crawford-esque .908 SV%. Keep in mind Crawford pitched his bad year when he was a 2.6M netminder, and Rinne did it as a 7M netminder. Perception though? Rinne is still looked at as top-tier, and Crawford mid-tier, even though Crawford did more with less. On the flipside compare the name factor of Seabrook, Keith, and Hjammer to Weber, Josi, and, Ellis. Weber, Josi, and Ellis made Keith, Seabrook, and Hjammer look comparable to Quint, Kukkonen, and Zyuzin in comparison this past season.
  • Surrounding cast. We know the Canadiens live or die with Price. Crawford on the other hand has a team full of top-tier (in name at least) players. I'm not saying you compare Crawford to Price--he's on an echelon above, but Crawford pitching a great season looks in comparison less impressive then Price. See also: 2015. Price and Crawford shared the Jennings with and Price didn't have the luxury of Toews, Hossa, Kruger, Keith, Seabrook, Oduya, and Keith pitching in a sub-par season by their 2014 shot suppression standards: Price's D's shot suppression was marginally better than the 'hawks in 2015, but for him that's par for the course.

Ergo, the point of my insidious soliloquy is this: As a fan the metric of "worth their salary" is subjective and opinion. We know what they make in cap, we know what their role is on the team, and we know what everyone else on the team makes and is their role. Negating Fanboism, if a player doesn't play like the perceived "standard", then they aren't worth it. Include Fanboism, and a dislikes player isn't worth their salary even when they save the team's bacon, or is still worth their salary even when they were a hindrance.
 

LordKOTL

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I agree 100%, I'm not sure what Crow is capable of with a full defense. He been covering that weakness in depth for 3 years

Yeah we do: 2013--probably the most dominating season (albeit partial) in recent history. Crawford, Emery, and the D were huge.
 

ClydeLee

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It's better than mentioning Hossa and X-rays in the same sentence. Which is what happened today

Why must I be Ladd? via da Tapatalk
 

Tater

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It's better than mentioning Hossa and X-rays in the same sentence. Which is what happened today

Why must I be Ladd? via da Tapatalk


tumblr_leygrtnRTu1qzu18ao1_400.gif
 

LordKOTL

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It's better than mentioning Hossa and X-rays in the same sentence. Which is what happened today

Why must I be Ladd? via da Tapatalk
Same could have happened in a preseason game...remember when "Campbell [was] skating gingerly off the ice?"

Still, I'm waiting for a decent argument that Hossa isn't one of the best defensive forwards of his generation. It's Him and Datsyuk--and then it really drops off from there.
 

DMelt36

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It's better than mentioning Hossa and X-rays in the same sentence. Which is what happened today

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Just so we don't panic, it was diagnosed as a bruised foot and Hossa is expected to be fine.
 

winos5

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Lot of former picks that are now UFA on that camp roster, although Jake Dowell only one that every played on the Blackhawks I believe.
 

anotheridiot

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Lot of former picks that are now UFA on that camp roster, although Jake Dowell only one that every played on the Blackhawks I believe.

Yes, and Jake played 52 the following year in 11-12 for Dallas before bouncing back to AHL. Its good he is getting a shot, just hope McNeil gets a good look too.
 

winos5

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Surprised there were no aging, gimpy veterans on PTOs
 

ClydeLee

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Versteeg signed a pto with the Oilers. They need veteran rap skills

Why must I be Ladd? via da Tapatalk
 

Spunky Porkstacker

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Yes, and Jake played 52 the following year in 11-12 for Dallas before bouncing back to AHL. Its good he is getting a shot, just hope McNeil gets a good look too.

If McNeil doesn't make it this year seems like he never will.
 

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