OT:Jeter HOF?

[Cubs2008]

Will Derek Jeter be in the hall of fame? This is a dumb question, of course he'll be. I've been sitting here thinking about how much I used to hate on him because he was the third, maybe fourth, or even fifth best SS in his own league at certain times according to me and that he got way too much praise. This got me thinking about how much I under appreciated his career. So I pulled up his stats, and they're really, really good. But what separates a hall of really good guy from a hall of fame player?

This got me wondering about Mark Grace, one of my favorite so called hall of really good players. What separates these guys? Simply put, in breaking down the numbers, not much. The facts of the matter are that the only real differences are that Jeter was able to begin his career at 22 instead of 24 like Grace did, and the fact that Jeter played on much, much better teams. Also, Jeter got the "magic" number 3,000. I suppose at the end of the day people fall in love with magic numbers, but is it really enough to simply play and be good for a long time to make the Hall of fame? Shouldn't you be great?

Jeter had more home runs and stolen bases of course, but Jeter was a well below average defender most of his career while Grace was easily a plus.

Jeter's slash lines were .312/.381/.446/.828. HRs 265, RBIS 1261, Rs 1876, ABs 10,614

Graces' .303/.383/.442/.825 HRs 173, RBIs 1146, Rs 1179, ABs 8065

What I gather from the numbers are that A) Jeter ran better. He had way more runs and steals (which I didn't bother to list). However, Grace was a much better defender which I also didn't list. B) Jeter got a shit ton more at bats due to being on a better team. If you look at it, Jeter had 2,549 more at bats! Although you can attribute a small portion of that to him being a leadoff hitter and playing two more years, essentially, a great deal of that advantage comes from being on the Yankees as opposed to the Cubs. If you added 1,700 at bats to Grace's career even, if he played for a team like the Yankees then he's around 3,000 hits probably.

So in the end, my conclusion is that Jeter will end up in the hall of fame because he was on a great team. Am I crazy here? What am I missing?

 

[dabynsky]

The thing you are missing is that one played SS and the other played 1B. Production is production, but there is a different offensive standard for SS than 1B. That is why Jeter is no a doubt Hall of Famer, and Grace is at best borderline. The postseason success certainly doesn't hurt Jeter's chances either.

 

[Cubs2008]

Yeah, I was just discussion those two points with a friend of mine. I do concede the fact that there are different standards by position. I also agree that his post season success is a big part of his legacy and rightfully so. But if he spends hi career with the Cubs instead of the Yankees and doesn't have all the post season success and all those 700+ AB years he probably ends up with 2,600 hits. Is he a HOFer then? I don't think so.

Look at Time Raines' stats. If he played on the Yankees where would he be?

 

[Boobaby1]

Yeah, I was just discussion those two points with a friend of mine. I do concede the fact that there are different standards by position. I also agree that his post season success is a big part of his legacy and rightfully so. But if he spends hi career with the Cubs instead of the Yankees and doesn't have all the post season success and all those 700+ AB years he probably ends up with 2,600 hits. Is he a HOFer then? I don't think so.

Look at Time Raines' stats. If he played on the Yankees where would he be?[/QUOTE]

Mainly New York.

 

[TL1961]

Jeter is top 10 in hits all time and someone is comparing him to Mark Grace?????

Grace was never the best player on his own team!

Tim Raines? He accumulated career numbers by playing a lot longer due to the DH. Talk about standards. If you're a DH, you better hit the heck out of the ball. NO DH I have ever seen deserves to be in the HOF.

Look at Raines career hits and RBI totals, then look at how many more games and AB's he has than guys he ranks with. Very good, productive career. But HOF? No way!

 

[brett05]

Grace was never the best player on his own team!

Really? I would say he was on the 93 and 95 team.

If you're a DH, you better hit the heck out of the ball. NO DH I have ever seen deserves to be in the HOF.

I am sorry that you never saw Frank Thomas, Edgar Martinez, and David Ortiz to name three really quick.

Look at Raines career hits and RBI totals, then look at how many more games and AB's he has than guys he ranks with. Very good, productive career. But HOF? No way!

Raines was a leadoff hitter. I am sorry he wasn't raking in 100 rbi a year.

 

[Parade_Rain]

Different numbers for different positions doesn't make much sense, imho. They either belong in the hall or they don't.

 

[dabynsky]

Different numbers for different positions doesn't make much sense, imho. They either belong in the hall or they don't.

Really? This pattern has been consistent throughout almost the entirety of baseball history that corner players have hit for more than middle of the diamond players. This isn't some new phenomenom. A good 1B is going to hit more than a good SS. So why shouldn't that be reflected in the standards for Hall of Fame players? Or should the Hall of Fame just be filled with 1B and DH types because they are the only ones that meet that standard?

 

[Cubs2008]

Forget Grace, my point was more about Jeter. I just thought Grace was someone we could all relate to. I realize that Jeter's magic number of hits puts him in the hall of fame. Along with the fact that he had a ton of playoff highlights. But the point is simply that if he had played on the Royals or any other mediocre to bad team I think he's more of a borderline HOFer rather than a first ballot shoe in.

 

[brett05]

Forget Grace, my point was more about Jeter. I just thought Grace was someone we could all relate to. I realize that Jeter's magic number of hits puts him in the hall of fame. Along with the fact that he had a ton of playoff highlights. But the point is simply that if he had played on the Royals or any other mediocre to bad team I think he's more of a borderline HOFer rather than a first ballot shoe in.

Perhaps he wouldn't be a HOFer on the Royals. Or perhaps he makes the other guys on the Royals reach their full potential as a leader.

 

[dabynsky]

Forget Grace, my point was more about Jeter. I just thought Grace was someone we could all relate to. I realize that Jeter's magic number of hits puts him in the hall of fame. Along with the fact that he had a ton of playoff highlights. But the point is simply that if he had played on the Royals or any other mediocre to bad team I think he's more of a borderline HOFer rather than a first ballot shoe in.

Honestly would be surprised if even he was a first ballot HOF. There seems to be a thing about that with some voters and I am guessing he falls a little bit short. However, I think even on the Royals those numbers would be impressive. That and if he was on the Royals he probably would have only spent four-six seasons there before he would have ended up in a big market team anyway

 

[brett05]

Honestly would be surprised if even he was a first ballot HOF.

Really? His numbers put him in the Hall, but not in the elite wing. From an eye test he's in the elite wing. From a Character standpoint, He's in the elite wing. I think those last two make him a lock to be first ballot.

 

[Parade_Rain]

A good 1B is going to hit more than a good SS.

Nonsense. Ripken Jr put up 1B numbers. Ernie Banks was moved to 1B. He would have had those numbers at SS. A-Rod was a SS before moving to 3B as a Yankee. If we're looking at numbers, Ozzie Smith doesn't belong there based upon "numbers" yet he belongs there because of his defensive wizardry. False barriers are silly. It's amazing how many people still cling to them. Good players don't always fit a mold.

So why shouldn't that be reflected in the standards for Hall of Fame players? Or should the Hall of Fame just be filled with 1B and DH types because they are the only ones that meet that standard?

Or looking at it your way, why can't a very good hitting 1B who didn't put up the usual power numbers for the position get consideration? It's not the player's fault that management didn't move him to CF early in his career.

 

[Parade_Rain]

Derek Jeter is a first ballot HoFer. He was the captain of a team that had long-term success over his time with the club. Media friendly. Avoids controversy.

 

[brett05]

Nonsense. Ripken Jr put up 1B numbers. Ernie Banks was moved to 1B. He would have had those numbers at SS. A-Rod was a SS before moving to 3B as a Yankee. If we're looking at numbers, Ozzie Smith doesn't belong there based upon "numbers" yet he belongs there because of his defensive wizardry. False barriers are silly. It's amazing how many people still cling to them. Good players don't always fit a mold.

Or looking at it your way, why can't a very good hitting 1B who didn't put up the usual power numbers for the position get consideration? It's not the player's fault that management didn't move him to CF early in his career.

You are either not exactly up to date on baseball history or are infatuated with the elite exceptions to the rule.

 

[Parade_Rain]

You are either not exactly up to date on baseball history or are infatuated with the elite exceptions to the rule.

Wrong. Quit getting buried in tradition.

 

[brett05]

Wrong. Quit getting buried in tradition.

You are right, I am wrong. There is a third option and that's a complete lack of knowledge. I'll let you decide where you fall.

 

[dabynsky]

Nonsense. Ripken Jr put up 1B numbers. Ernie Banks was moved to 1B. He would have had those numbers at SS. A-Rod was a SS before moving to 3B as a Yankee. If we're looking at numbers, Ozzie Smith doesn't belong there based upon "numbers" yet he belongs there because of his defensive wizardry. False barriers are silly. It's amazing how many people still cling to them. Good players don't always fit a mold.

Or looking at it your way, why can't a very good hitting 1B who didn't put up the usual power numbers for the position get consideration? It's not the player's fault that management didn't move him to CF early in his career.

If position doesn't matter why do 1B on average out hit SS every year? Does that mean that more 1B are elite players than SS?

 

[Cubs2008]

If position doesn't matter why do 1B on average out hit SS every year? Does that mean that more 1B are elite players than SS?

It could mean that SS is a defensive position. Jeter was a below average defensive player.

This could mean that if Jeter was a Royals 1B he's not a HOF and if Grace was a SS he was a first ballot HOF.

 

[dabynsky]

It could mean that SS is a defensive position. Jeter was a below average defensive player.

Oh so the fact that a player can handle SS means that less is expected of them with the bat.

This could mean that if Jeter was a Royals 1B he's not a HOF and if Grace was a SS he was a first ballot HOF.

Take out the Royals part and the statement is still true. The fact that Grace could only play the easiest defensive position means that he has to hit more to enter that elite of the elite class of baseball players that is the HOF. Tino Martinez played for the Yankees and while his career line is worse than Grace at .271/.344/.471, but it is in the same ballpark as shown by their career OPS+ being 119 for Grace to 112 for Martinez. Martinez also has nearly twice the career homeruns than Grace in 200 fewer games. He also played on World Series winning Yankees team, but no one is seriously pushing Tino Martinez for the Hall because he was an above average hitting good glove 1B.