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of course Cleveland got a better return. They traded a more valuable player
of course Cleveland got a better return. They traded a more valuable player
Discus fish salesman
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Also Carrasco may be injury prone but his value is also infinitely more than caratini. The trades aren't really worth comparing. Cleveland obviously should have gotten more in return...
CSF77
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But when you talk about value there are hardline facts and then there is opinions. One is rigid the other is adaptable depending on point of view.
Fact:. Yu put up 3 WAR. In a short year.
Fact he holds 3 years of control.
Fact: the return got 4*45 ranked prospects and 1 year of control of a lesser pitcher.
Fact: they added a starting quality catchers that ranks in the top 8% of league framers.
Fact: Lindor is a 5 war player (slightly better than Baez) (4.5 war player)
Fact: like Baez he holds 1 year of control.
Fact: the return netted 2 MLB players. A starting quality SS and a back up UI. and 2 50 grade prospects.
Fact: Carraco holds control and added weight to the deal.
Opinion: Yu will degrade with age.
Opinion.: Carraco will be a DL case based off of history.
Opinion and irrelevant: Mets will extend Lindor.
Opinion : Davies will out pitch Yu.
Opinion: Caratini will take over the starting catcher roll and add value to the deal.
Opinion: most prospects never make it. (Irrelevant as they are buying current value.)
That is how it works
Fact:. Yu put up 3 WAR. In a short year.
Fact he holds 3 years of control.
Fact: the return got 4*45 ranked prospects and 1 year of control of a lesser pitcher.
Fact: they added a starting quality catchers that ranks in the top 8% of league framers.
Fact: Lindor is a 5 war player (slightly better than Baez) (4.5 war player)
Fact: like Baez he holds 1 year of control.
Fact: the return netted 2 MLB players. A starting quality SS and a back up UI. and 2 50 grade prospects.
Fact: Carraco holds control and added weight to the deal.
Opinion: Yu will degrade with age.
Opinion.: Carraco will be a DL case based off of history.
Opinion and irrelevant: Mets will extend Lindor.
Opinion : Davies will out pitch Yu.
Opinion: Caratini will take over the starting catcher roll and add value to the deal.
Opinion: most prospects never make it. (Irrelevant as they are buying current value.)
That is how it works
CSF77
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Looking at the Cubs needs that deal should have been Davies, Croneworth and Ryan Weathers..
Davies would slot now. Amaya takes over the back up. Croneworth starts in LF replacing Schwarber. Weathers is a 50 grade LHSP prospect. He was in full A in 2019 and would start at Tenn this year. He would have been a part of the Davis and Roederer wave pending.
That deal made sense and helps the transition. What Jed settled for was pipebomb fishing up 45 rated teenagers.
Davies would slot now. Amaya takes over the back up. Croneworth starts in LF replacing Schwarber. Weathers is a 50 grade LHSP prospect. He was in full A in 2019 and would start at Tenn this year. He would have been a part of the Davis and Roederer wave pending.
That deal made sense and helps the transition. What Jed settled for was pipebomb fishing up 45 rated teenagers.
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for sure. It’s silly how some cubs fans on here think the cubs should of gotten more for Yu, but then the same ones act like Cleveland got some great haul for lindor. The contradictions are large with some on here.
CSF77
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You understand that 45 grade prospects can be found in lower rounds of the draft and Jed could have drafted that talent level in June.
50 and above really are found round 1-3.
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yes, I do. I’m sure he could of gotten one 50 grade prospect, but instead he chose four lottery tickets.
if you think the cubs didn’t get enough for Yu, I don’t know how on earth you can think Cleveland got enough for lindor. That’s contradictory
I feel both the cubs and Cleveland got what the market value of the two players were in 2020/21. Because I’m at least consistent
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Of course, I mean graded trades in the beginning is dumb. But, owners are rich not because they are dumb. They arent going to take on big contacts during this covid unless their team really has a shot. MEts want to make a splash and Lindor only has a year of control.so what?
Francisco Lindor trade winners and losers: Mets pull off heist, which is bad news for Cleveland and NL East
A trade this big affects more than just the two teams involvedwww.google.com
the return was nothing special for a guy considered to be a franchise player. Again, it points to players that make a lot of $$ aren’t getting the returns they used to. Being a great player doesn’t mean you’ll get a great return for them in a trade.
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The return cleveland got isn't as bad as it's being made out to be. It's just not what people are accustom to seeing in big trades. I think that is partly because of coivd/money and partly because teams just aren't making those big prospect trades much anymore. I mean consider that both Bryant and Lindor were also probably available last offseason at the right price. Also consider the Betts trade.
The difficult thing for me to comment on is Carrasco's value in this. It sounded like Cleveland were the ones who wanted to include him for money reasons. If the trade were just those 4 players for Lindor it's not overwhelming but it's fine. Carrasco though has pitched well so trying to parse what value is his in this trade is difficult.
All that being said, Rosario and Giménez very likely are a starting middle infield for the foreseeable future for Cleveland. For a team like Cleveland that's invaluable because it's cost controlled players with upside. Sure no one in the deal is likely going to be Lindor but it was 1 year of Lindor. They had no leverage.
The difficult thing for me to comment on is Carrasco's value in this. It sounded like Cleveland were the ones who wanted to include him for money reasons. If the trade were just those 4 players for Lindor it's not overwhelming but it's fine. Carrasco though has pitched well so trying to parse what value is his in this trade is difficult.
All that being said, Rosario and Giménez very likely are a starting middle infield for the foreseeable future for Cleveland. For a team like Cleveland that's invaluable because it's cost controlled players with upside. Sure no one in the deal is likely going to be Lindor but it was 1 year of Lindor. They had no leverage.
CSF77
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Yep.
The point is Gimenez was a top 100 talent and has a partial season under his belt. It is nonsense to say that Cleveland got nothing in return. Then you add 2 50 grade prospects and a 2B that can play everyday for you?
That trade filled current needs and added a SP and a CF prospect that didn't suck at all.
The Cubs added 4 A ball players. They could have gone heavy into college position players in June and drafted 4* 45 quality talent and pushed them into SB at the same time as these kids. Few years older and more polished.
Jed should gave gone after Weathers because his talent is equal to Alozay. Which means middle vs back or BP arm. That is a 50-> 45 talent change. It makes a difference.
I am fine with Davies. Cubs.com did a write up and this team is going to need plus D this year. All 3 SP are pitch to contact types. So weakening the IF D is not a option. But they are going to need velocity to round up the rotation. Alozay looks like a lock after adding a 2 seem and reworking his slider last year. His improvement was a result of hard work. They will need a 2nd arm. I would love to say Marquez but that is naive. But it really narrows the field.
Internal they have Miller. I was looking as his pitch chart and he was all over the place. 45% of his pitches came for strikes. He is a thrower. He would get mauled in the majors. It is very unlikely that they use him to bridge to Marquez.
On the market the perfect guy is Bauer. He wants to go to a data driven team that lets him pitch on every 4th day. He said that his body peaks that way. Also it helps the team being able to rest it's other starters more frequently during a full season right after a 60 game season.
IMO he would be well worth the investment due to the value he would being to it. We are talking about a guy that will take the ball 40 times per year. We have not seen that sense the 70's. So as far as value goes a team making the investment he will not be a wasted one.
Now regarding the Cubs. Would be nice and would have made sense except Tom is offloading contract. That really handcuffs Jed in what he can do. I feel that Archer is a good prediction on a fix him contract offer with the intention to remarket at higher value.
The point is Gimenez was a top 100 talent and has a partial season under his belt. It is nonsense to say that Cleveland got nothing in return. Then you add 2 50 grade prospects and a 2B that can play everyday for you?
That trade filled current needs and added a SP and a CF prospect that didn't suck at all.
The Cubs added 4 A ball players. They could have gone heavy into college position players in June and drafted 4* 45 quality talent and pushed them into SB at the same time as these kids. Few years older and more polished.
Jed should gave gone after Weathers because his talent is equal to Alozay. Which means middle vs back or BP arm. That is a 50-> 45 talent change. It makes a difference.
I am fine with Davies. Cubs.com did a write up and this team is going to need plus D this year. All 3 SP are pitch to contact types. So weakening the IF D is not a option. But they are going to need velocity to round up the rotation. Alozay looks like a lock after adding a 2 seem and reworking his slider last year. His improvement was a result of hard work. They will need a 2nd arm. I would love to say Marquez but that is naive. But it really narrows the field.
Internal they have Miller. I was looking as his pitch chart and he was all over the place. 45% of his pitches came for strikes. He is a thrower. He would get mauled in the majors. It is very unlikely that they use him to bridge to Marquez.
On the market the perfect guy is Bauer. He wants to go to a data driven team that lets him pitch on every 4th day. He said that his body peaks that way. Also it helps the team being able to rest it's other starters more frequently during a full season right after a 60 game season.
IMO he would be well worth the investment due to the value he would being to it. We are talking about a guy that will take the ball 40 times per year. We have not seen that sense the 70's. So as far as value goes a team making the investment he will not be a wasted one.
Now regarding the Cubs. Would be nice and would have made sense except Tom is offloading contract. That really handcuffs Jed in what he can do. I feel that Archer is a good prediction on a fix him contract offer with the intention to remarket at higher value.
CSF77
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I've started to follow Trevor Bauer. Some of his work is very insightful on the game from a insider point of view. This one really spoke volume on who these two players really are. Good watch.