OT: Officially Sosa was a Juicer

[Newskoolbulls]

RPK wrote:

One of my buddies went to high school with Bobby Howry and said he was a big time juicer. Just got me thinking, and maybe it's not a fair way to generalize, but if crappy relievers are using PED's, then a majority of major league ball players are on something just to be competitive. If you look at the risk/reward factor, it makes sense as to why they would risk their future legacy in order for the huge pay day.

As far as Sammy and Arod being outed from this list, why won't they just release all the names? Why are they waiting for opportune moments to tarnish these players?

Mr. Piazza your next.

 

[SouL EateR]

Newskoolbulls wrote:

RPK wrote:

One of my buddies went to high school with Bobby Howry and said he was a big time juicer. Just got me thinking, and maybe it's not a fair way to generalize, but if crappy relievers are using PED's, then a majority of major league ball players are on something just to be competitive. If you look at the risk/reward factor, it makes sense as to why they would risk their future legacy in order for the huge pay day.

As far as Sammy and Arod being outed from this list, why won't they just release all the names? Why are they waiting for opportune moments to tarnish these players?

Mr. Piazza your next.

No way ....Cant be....:S

 

[Diddy1122]

Newskoolbulls wrote:

Pujols had that weird injury two years ago that is an injury that happens mostly to steroid users.

If you're talking about his elbow injury, that wasn't weird at all & happens to tons of players, steroids or no. Plus he injured his calf while running, which there's nothing suspicious about that. The only dark cloud I see is the fact that he's Dominican, & almost all of the big Dominican stars have been outed as juicers. Hope the same isn't true for A-Ram.

 

[??? ??????]

Diddy1122 wrote:

??? ?????? wrote:

If Sosa's not even clean then no one can be expected to be clean. (Except probably Griffey Jr.).

This guy's days have to be limited.

Not so sure about that. Pujols has always been big. He struggled with weight alot in the beginning of his career. He wasn't a stick like Bonds & Sosa were when they started. If there's 1 guy I think who hasn't used anything other than Griff, it's Pujols.

Pujols was only drafted in the 13th round in 1999, and then two years later became the rookie of the year.

Pujols came up in the height of the steroid era, so unlike Sosa and Bonds, who seem to have found steroids after being in the MLB (thus going from small to big), Pujols may have been taking them all along.

I did a quick google search and couldn't find a pictuer of Pujols in high school, the Jayhawk League, or the minor league. So he might be hiding some pictures of him being a stick as well.

 

[Newskoolbulls]

Diddy1122 wrote:

Newskoolbulls wrote:

Pujols had that weird injury two years ago that is an injury that happens mostly to steroid users.

If you're talking about his elbow injury, that wasn't weird at all & happens to tons of players, steroids or no. Plus he injured his calf while running, which there's nothing suspicious about that. The only dark cloud I see is the fact that he's Dominican, & almost all of the big Dominican stars have been outed as juicers. Hope the same isn't true for A-Ram.

I think it was an oblique or something with his him. It was two or three years ago.

 

[Diddy1122]

Newskoolbulls wrote:

Diddy1122 wrote:

Newskoolbulls wrote:

Pujols had that weird injury two years ago that is an injury that happens mostly to steroid users.

If you're talking about his elbow injury, that wasn't weird at all & happens to tons of players, steroids or no. Plus he injured his calf while running, which there's nothing suspicious about that. The only dark cloud I see is the fact that he's Dominican, & almost all of the big Dominican stars have been outed as juicers. Hope the same isn't true for A-Ram.

I think it was an oblique or something with his him. It was two or three years ago.

Eh, whatever. I hate the friggin' Cards anyway. Same goes for Pujols.

 

[Newskoolbulls]

Diddy1122 wrote:

Newskoolbulls wrote:

Diddy1122 wrote:

Newskoolbulls wrote:

Pujols had that weird injury two years ago that is an injury that happens mostly to steroid users.

If you're talking about his elbow injury, that wasn't weird at all & happens to tons of players, steroids or no. Plus he injured his calf while running, which there's nothing suspicious about that. The only dark cloud I see is the fact that he's Dominican, & almost all of the big Dominican stars have been outed as juicers. Hope the same isn't true for A-Ram.

I think it was an oblique or something with his him. It was two or three years ago.

Eh, whatever. I hate the friggin' Cards anyway. Same goes for Pujols.

are you the same Diddy from fakegm?

 

[MADman24]

From everything I've heard Pujols was big in high school and here are some pics from 1998-1999 from his various minor league teams and community college. I know baseball has brought this on themselves but really it is unfair to individuals to suggest they have juiced when you have no proof. Furthermore why is it that people seem to forgive and forget NFL players busted for steroids but seem to want to kick baseball's cheater's out the league and keep them out of the HOF?

 

[HeavyC]

To be fair though, those rookie cards all seem to be from the same set. I don't want to just assume everyone juiced, but the evidence suggests it. Every guy that has come under suspicion has been found out to have done it. The sooner Pujols and David Ortiz get found out the better. We can stick an asterisk over the last 15 years and move forward.

Yes, I said David Ortiz. The guy went from a nobody in Minnesota to the game's most feared hitter in Boston basically over night. He's gotten a major pass because he's in Boston and because they won the World Series. He was tight with Manny, and there is no way he's clean.

Personally, I don't have a real problem with PEDs. It's just that baseball has started down this path, and now they have to see it through. You can't selectively pick and choose which guys you want to run out of the league because they aren't likable. If the NFL or the NBA wanted to start down the same path, I'd be in favor of finding everyone and at least having a level playing field. To me at least, I'd let it all go. In a couple of generations we'll all have little perfect genetically modified super babies designed to hit the ball 600 feet. They won't need PEDs. It's a losing battle, that professional and international sport will NEVER get out in front of.

 

[Kush77]

MADman24 wrote:

From everything I've heard Pujols was big in high school and here are some pics from 1998-1999 from his various minor league teams and community college. I know baseball has brought this on themselves but really it is unfair to individuals to suggest they have juiced when you have no proof. Furthermore why is it that people seem to forgive and forget NFL players busted for steroids but seem to want to kick baseball's cheater's out the league and keep them out of the HOF?

I agree, it drives me nuts that the NFL gets a free pass on everything.

I said it on my podcast several times. The NFL gets a pass on steroids. And when it comes to the NBA, the NBA gets ripped for having a league full of thugs. Yet the NFL has playes constantly in trouble with the law and players involved in people actually dying. Stallworth, Leonard Little. But the NFL is king, so fans and media give it a free pass.

As for baseball, I just think there are soe other guys that use. I'm convinced Jim Thome did something. Just look at the pictures. And if people want to convict guys based on the "eyeball test" then Thome should be called into question. Instead he's praised by the Chicago media for doing it the right way. Has anyone ever looked at pictures of Thome? I posted them in this forum and it's pretty clear.

 

[JayJohnstone]

Newskoolbulls wrote:

We will never every see a juicer in the Hall.

I'm pretty sure Clemmans and A-Rod are going to be in the Hall.

 

[dougthonus]

I think a lot of juicers will get in.

I'm definitely all for letting the best of the best in this era get in regardless of whether they took steroids. Are we going to kick out players in the amphetamines era of baseball because they took pills to have greater energy each day?

 

[dougthonus]

Kush77 wrote:

The next shoe to drop I think is Jim Thome. He gets a free pass in Chicago because he's a good guy.

After watching a film of the 1995 World Series about 4 years ago (Manny and Thome were on the Indians) and after seeing how small Manny and Thome were, I was convinced they did something. We found out the truth about Manny. I think Thome will be next.

If we go by the eyeball test, which is all we had on Sammy until today, I think Thome can be called into question.

Thome 1995

Thome 2004

Not that I care about Thome or have an opinion either way, but he doesn't look appreciably bigger to me in one photo compared to the ohter. If anything he just looks fatter in the second one, but his arms don't look any bigger.

 

[strassburguesa]

??? ?????? wrote:

If Sosa's not even clean then no one can be expected to be clean. (Except probably Griffey Jr.).

This guy's days have to be limited.

if you are picking ONE guy who HAD to be clean, how the hell do you land on Sosa?

My favorite part is that the same year that he failed a 'roids test was the same year that he got caught corking his bat...double cheating and he STILL wasn't the best player in the game. So long, Sammy.

I definitely LOL'ed when I saw the news...not that it was a surprise in any way, shape, or form.

 

[mlewinth]

??? ?????? wrote:

If Sosa's not even clean then no one can be expected to be clean. (Except probably Griffey Jr.).

This guy's days have to be limited.

[/img]

I normally agree with you my friend, but COME ON! You make it sound like Sosa doing roids is some kind of shocker! If anyone DID roids, my guess was always it was Sosa:

1) Look at older pics of Sosa (on the Sox) then look at him on the Cubs. He bulked up to Incredible Hulk proportions.

2) LOOK AT HIM! His upper torse was GIGANTIC and his head was TINY. He seriously looked like Beetlejuice at the end of the movie, when the dude shrunk his head. Only one thing makes u look link that....ROIDS!

3) Remember when Sammy was infront of congress like 2 years ago. Remember how he suddenly forgot how to speak english!?!? He had no problem answering reporter questions throught his career, but how convient, he is in front of congress and he acts as if he just got off the boat.

Sammy had a nice image, but he was secretly a douchbag. I don't hold Sammy responsible for this though, I hold baseball responsibly. Baseball had a problem right under their nose, they knew it was going on and they chose to do nothing about it. That is why I think every single one of these guys (Bonds, Sosa, McGuire) should go to the Hall of Fame. It can serve as a constant reminder of how baseball was the worst run sport in the history of sports. It can remind us all that for one era, baseball cared more about filling the seats over the health of their players and the integrity of the game. You simply cannot tell me Bonds or Sosa doesnt deserve to be in the Hall. They do!

 

[strassburguesa]

mlewinth wrote:


Sammy had a nice image, but he was secretly a douchbag. I don't hold Sammy responsible for this though, I hold baseball responsibly. Baseball had a problem right under their nose, they knew it was going on and they chose to do nothing about it. That is why I think every single one of these guys (Bonds, Sosa, McGuire) should go to the Hall of Fame. It can serve as a constant reminder of how baseball was the worst run sport in the history of sports. It can remind us all that for one era, baseball cared more about filling the seats over the health of their players and the integrity of the game. You simply cannot tell me Bonds or Sosa doesnt deserve to be in the Hall. They do![/quote]

While I agree that baseball sold out to fill seats in the late 90s/early 2000s, it seems like the NFL still largely turns a blind eye towards PEDs.

You can absolutely say that Bonds, Sosa, and McGwire have no place in the HOF...they were caught cheating. If anything comes up regarding PEDs in the future for anyone already in the HOF...or anyone who will be inducted, I am all for taking their plaques down. Just because baseball made a mistake does not mean that they should glorify those who prospered under their not-so-watchful eye.

 

[mlewinth]

strassburguesa wrote:

mlewinth wrote:


Sammy had a nice image, but he was secretly a douchbag. I don't hold Sammy responsible for this though, I hold baseball responsibly. Baseball had a problem right under their nose, they knew it was going on and they chose to do nothing about it. That is why I think every single one of these guys (Bonds, Sosa, McGuire) should go to the Hall of Fame. It can serve as a constant reminder of how baseball was the worst run sport in the history of sports. It can remind us all that for one era, baseball cared more about filling the seats over the health of their players and the integrity of the game. You simply cannot tell me Bonds or Sosa doesnt deserve to be in the Hall. They do!

While I agree that baseball sold out to fill seats in the late 90s/early 2000s, it seems like the NFL still largely turns a blind eye towards PEDs.

You can absolutely say that Bonds, Sosa, and McGwire have no place in the HOF...they were caught cheating. If anything comes up regarding PEDs in the future for anyone already in the HOF...or anyone who will be inducted, I am all for taking their plaques down. Just because baseball made a mistake does not mean that they should glorify those who prospered under their not-so-watchful eye.[/quote]


I see your point, but I think it is disgusting that this steroids issue has turned into exiling players and using them as scape goats, while the ENTIRE TIME the issue was with Major Leauge Baseball. They never tested for it, they had no rules against it specific to baseball. For those years (96-maybe 2003) baseball knew damn well what was going on and promoted it by turning a blind eye. Instead of making these players look like criminals for doing what "everyone else" was doing, we need to point a finger at the leauge to say "Hey, we havent forgotten what you did to contribute to this and you made this bed the way that it is, so now lie in it!!". Players like A-Rod, Sosa, McGuire, Bonds, Clemens had phenominal careers. Are we just not going to induct ANYONE into the HOF for a 10 year period? No way! These players were legends to the cities they lived in and to the sport they dedicated themselves to. Just because it came out that their stats are tainted (while the whole leauges stats in that period were tainted) is not a good enough reason for me to say we don't give them the respect that they are due!

 

[strassburguesa]

That's just the thing...they are not due respect because they cheated. The handful of great players from that era that did NOT use PEDs(which may be limited to Griffey JR and Frank Thomas when all is said and done) earned respect.

I agree that you cannot shun the players and leave the league unaccountable. That said, I feel that to induct them into the hall of fame and cast the blame on the league is doing the exact opposite. Players and the league are like a child/parent relationship. If some 12 year old kid is getting into trouble because his parents aren't watching him, is it all his fault? No...but the kid deserves some blame alongside with lacksadasical parenting. Just because players were allowed to get away with it does not mean that they should be absolved of all blame.

It's tough to punish the league, though. Now if there was some sort of class action suit and everyone in America received free tickets to a game of their choice, I think that would be a reasonable settlement.

 

[charity stripe]

I didn't read any articles on this, I was wondering if Sosa would be punished now for lying to Congress in 2005.

 

[brett05]

First off folks, it's McGwire....and secondly Mark was never found guilty of anything.