OT: Tracy McGrady and Allen Iverson retire

[Crystallas]

Iverson loved Philly hardcore. I really wondered what would have happened, if his daughter wasn't sick. I don't think anyone expected that chapter to end the way it did.

 

[scottiepippen1994]

Hey man.
Francisco Elson retired too.
How come nobody made a thread about that legendary hall of famer?
:shrug:

[video=youtube;y8AZ2yG1T6E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8AZ2yG1T6E&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/video]

 

[czman]

Hold on, hold on, hold on! WHAT???

Allen Iverson has played this game with a bigger heart than I´ve seen any other player do so. And that includes Michael Jordan!

Off the court he was just a real and honest person. Just because he didn´t want to be fake and stuff, he nowhere did disrespect anybody!

I don´t know where you get that from. Yes he was a front runner for the hip hop generation. But why does that automatically mean he´s a douche?

You´ve probably been blinded by the media badly!

[video=youtube;fgq1Fc40VO0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgq1Fc40VO0[/video]

Are you kidding me. Didn't Alex Rodriguez cry during that interview. A handful of minutes talking to your old coach is not the same as a life time of work.

Allen Iverson is one of the best players ever. I doubt anyone here would rank him as high as I do. He is 6th all time in PPG. He averaged over 30 PPG 4 times and won 4 scoring tiles. He is a great player. He changed the league. He changed the way PGs could play. He changed the way people attacked the basket. He made it acceptable for guys that would have been CBs in the NFL to become great athletic scoring little men.

All that said he was a complete and utter D-bag. Being a douche does not mean you cannot play hard or you are not a fierce competitor.

He was the first player to bring the Pose into the locker room. That was a huge issue for the 76ers. Iverson forced their hand and held them to the fire on that. The entire act was completely disrespectful to the organization and the coach.

He was disrespectful to everyone he ever crossed over or made look bad. I am sure many people on this site don't remember, but the early 90s is when the flagrant fouls rules became punitive. Players were not blatantly disrespectful to opponents before Iverson. Back in the day people lost teeth for the stunts he pulled. It is common place now, but he is one of the fathers of it.

His entire practice rant was disrespectful to his coach and everyone on his team. There is not one coach anywhere that finds that amusing.

He is coming up on 40 now. I am sure he has grown some as a person since he entered the league. There is a reason why he just disappeared. Teams did not want him. Coaches and organizations will take almost anyone they think can help them win. The on no no is being disrespectful to the organization and coaches. That is the stuff that gets you playing in leagues outside the US.

I am a huge fan of James Brown. I really like his music. That does not change the fact he was a criminal and abuser.

It is possible to think Iverson is a great player who played extremely hard, but also had flaws. He was not perfect. He did a lot of ignorant things and spit in the face of a lot of people.

Being a good guy and a great player are not mutually exclusive.

 

[czman]

Two points:

1- McGrady was more than just a great scorer. He was an underrated defensive player and was a great play-maker. He didn't have the point guard skills of LeBron James but he had a lot of it at 6'8''.

2- Iverson and McGrady are a lot alike. If A.I. was T-Mac's size, he would have likely been the greatest player in the history of the league. But he wasn't.

In terms of longevity at an all-star level, A.I.>T-Mac for sure. In terms of who would I want (both at their BEST) for one season... hard not to take McGrady every time.

Iverson is so much better than McGrady. McGrady is one of the players who is extremity luck to play during the video game era. He is a perfect example of how video games and sport center have confused players ability. I am sure there are people who loved playing with him in a video game. I am sure there are people that loved his highlights on tv. Basketball games are won in the time between shot attempts.

McGrady was not a great scorer. He was a good scorer who took a very high volume of shots. Mcgrady was a good on the ball defender, but he was not a good off the ball defender.

Every team Mcgrady ever played for a better year the season after he was gone. Mcrady dominated the ball far more than he should have. He had zero off the ball skills. His passing was not very good for a point forward.

Players who pound the ball 25' from the rim possession after possession lose in the playoffs. They don't make their teammates better. They don't allow the team to have ball movement or player movement which usually forces into bad spacing.

Mcgrady was a shot attempt player. Outside of those small moments on the court he was just average. Most people just place a disproportionate about of weight on those small moments.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Iverson is so much better than McGrady. McGrady is one of the players who is extremity luck to play during the video game era. He is a perfect example of how video games and sport center have confused players ability. I am sure there are people who loved playing with him in a video game. I am sure there are people that loved his highlights on tv. Basketball games are won in the time between shot attempts.

McGrady was not a great scorer. He was a good scorer who took a very high volume of shots. Mcgrady was a good on the ball defender, but he was not a good off the ball defender.

Every team Mcgrady ever played for a better year the season after he was gone. Mcrady dominated the ball far more than he should have. He had zero off the ball skills. His passing was not very good for a point forward.

Players who pound the ball 25' from the rim possession after possession lose in the playoffs. They don't make their teammates better. They don't allow the team to have ball movement or player movement which usually forces into bad spacing.

Mcgrady was a shot attempt player. Outside of those small moments on the court he was just average. Most people just place a disproportionate about of weight on those small moments.

Iverson dominated the ball a lot more than McGrady and had a much lower efficiency scoring the ball. Your arguments for why you believe McGrady wasn't as good as Iverson contradict reality and the facts.

McGrady had a higher PER. His shooting efficiency was better. McGrady had a farther shooting range than Iverson. He was a better overall defensive player. He could actually be a factor on the boards and was a triple-double threat. And He COULD play off of the ball effectively.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

McGrady was not a great scorer.
he was just average.

Anyone who says this shouldn't talk about basketball.

 

[transplant]

^^^^Good debate.

I was neither a fan nor a hater for either.

Both are obvious HOFers. Both were great offensive players. During their primes, I heard the same criticism leveled at each of them - brilliant individuals, but they don't make the players around them better.

Overall, I find it too close to call, but admit that I liked Iverson more...he got everything he could out of what God gave him.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Every playoff series McGrady lost, his team shouldn't have been the favorites. Say what you want about the never getting out of the first round thing, but look at who his supporting cast was in Orlando. It was a miracle that they took a 3-1 lead against Detroit with Darrell Armstrong and Pat Garrity. Houston got ROBBED against Dallas back in 2005. McGrady lost to the Jazz twice but he really did not have a better team at all (even with Yao).

Iverson was my favorite player because pound-for-pound, he was the best player in the league and his absolute toughness. He was pure talent and heart/determination. But he was never the best player in the league.

McGrady was 6'8'' and quite frankly a lot more willing to facilitate than Iverson was. And he was much more efficient with about two less turnovers per game with even slightly more assists per minute. Iverson couldn't even beat a much less talented Argentinian team as a catalyst. Iverson was the greatest under-sized scoring guard of all-time. Iverson was most ideal to come off the bench behind a prototypical point guard (i.e. Rod Strickland) and a superstar 2man (i.e. Kobe Bryant or Dwyane Wade).

 

[houheffna]

Anyone who says this shouldn't talk about basketball.

agreed...how many guys led the league in scoring twice...but wasn't a great scorer?

 

[Axl Rose]

so you praise iverson but knock mcgrady for taking too many shots and dominating the ball?

did you ever watch iverson? hes the GOAT of 30 for 30 (30 shots for 30 points)

 

[houheffna]

so you praise iverson but knock mcgrady for taking too many shots and dominating the ball?

did you ever watch iverson? hes the GOAT of 30 for 30 (30 shots for 30 points)

I was going to bring that up.....but I would rather wait on dude's lame ass thesis using an infinite amount of unproven basketball formulas that would suggest otherwise. Might get him an A in his statistics class...but it won't get him too far with people who watched them play.

 

[clonetrooper264]

agreed...how many guys led the league in scoring twice...but wasn't a great scorer?

so you praise iverson but knock mcgrady for taking too many shots and dominating the ball?

did you ever watch iverson? hes the GOAT of 30 for 30 (30 shots for 30 points)

I wasn't sure how he was going to reconcile those facts. Iverson was like career 42% from the field...the definition of a volume scorer. I'm not saying TMac was super efficient by any means, but he was at least as efficient as Iverson. Statistically, you can't call TMac an "average" scorer without saying the same for Iverson. For what it's worth also, Iverson has a slightly higher usage percentage than McGrady and they have about the same difference in ast%. I think it's fair to say they dominated the ball about the same.

 

[czman]

Are people kidding me.

Allen Iverson is 6th all time in PPG. 6th. I will type this again......6th. He is the only player under 6'3" in the top 45. He averaged 26.66 PPG.

Mcgrady is 64th alltime in PPG. There are like ~40 SG/SFs ahead of him. All most all of them shot better than .435 from the field. Mcgrady averaged 19.6 PPG for his career.

Are people going to comapre 19.6 PPG to 26.66 and the 64th to the 6th??? Really. Really.

Mcgrady has 1 season over 29 PPG and 2 seasons over 26 PPG (not counting the season over 29).

Iverson has 4 season over 29 and 6 more over 26 (Not counting the seasons over 29).

Neither of them were efficient scorers, but there is a difference between 26.66 PPG and 19.60 PPG. Iverson is a great all time scorer. When you consider his position and height he is the greatest PG/little man scorer of all time.

Mcgrady is an average scorer when you compare him to the better players in the league. People are right, if you compare him to Bob Hansen Mcgrady is not an average scorer. Who the hell is comparing him to Bob Hansen though? People are talking about Lebron James and Kobe Bryant. People are talking about him as an all time great player. Compared to those guys he us average.

Iverson, compared to the great players is still great.

in 99/00 Iverson took a dog team to 6 games agasint the eventual ECF winner and Mcradgy and Vince Carter got swept.

in 00/01 Iverson took a dog team to the finals and Mcgrady and the Magic won 1 game agasint the Bucks.

Iverson consistently took equal or worse teams further in the playoffs.

Lastly, the entire Iverson is a ball hog thing is just false. When Iverson played under Larry Brown Iverson played off the ball running off mainly single double screen. Eric Snow played the point on offense. It was not till dumb ass Moe Cheeks became the coach that Iverson turn into a ball pounding player who hindered ball movement, spacing, and player movement.

Mcgrady never showed any ability to play off the ball, even in his very late years. Iverson was better off the ball. Mcgrady was a player who was only useful when the ball was in his hands almost the entire game. That is why he failed in the playoffs consistently. Iverson succeed consistently when he played off the ball; something Mcgrady never learned to do.

 

[czman]

so you praise iverson but knock mcgrady for taking too many shots and dominating the ball?

did you ever watch iverson? hes the GOAT of 30 for 30 (30 shots for 30 points)

Did you watch the NBA before 2003?

 

[houheffna]

And....there's the lame ass thesis...right on time....long-winded too...lots of sound and fury signifying absolutely nothing.

So....Bernard King and Dirk Nowitzki were not great scorers? Really? Larry Bird had the same amount of seasons scoring 26+ ppg as McGrady? Bird wasn't a great scorer? What??? McGrady's years from age 21 to 28 stack up against Iverson's best years very well. That is a 7 year span. You look at the bottom of a damn bubble gum card and see 19.6 and declare that McGrady wasn't a great scorer...did YOU watch McGrady at all?

McGrady experienced a sharp rise and then experienced a sharp decline. THAT is what happened. He spent the first two years and the last 3 years of his career scoring under 10ppg. But in his prime years, which is what counts...he was a great scorer. Stop the madness please!

Also, don't blame Mo Cheeks for Iverson's porous efficiency numbers. Iverson's 2nd, 3rd and 4th WORST true shooting percentages were under Larry Brown. His worst season of his career was under Johnny Davis. The most efficient of his career as a 76er? 2005-2006...under Maurice Cheeks! Good grief...

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

LOL

Now Statboy has resorted to using CAREER points per game to measure A.I. and McGrady. Now THAT is a desperate argument.

Let's just conveniently ignore:

(a) A.I. averaged over 41 minutes per game (career);
McGrady averaged under 33 minutes per game (career)

(b) A.I. came into the league at age 21;
McGrady came into the league at age 18 (barely playing his first couple of years).

........not to mention the injuries McGrady went through while with the Rockets. Iverson was tough as nails but his injuries were ticky-tack compared to T-Mac's.

PS- McGrady was as versatile of a scorer as they came. Yes, when he went to Houston, he played a lot more at the top of the key with the ball in his hands constantly. But when he was with the Magic, he played off of the ball a lot and he was very effective.

And LOL at 'he lost to the Bucks.' The Bucks were way better than the Magic back then.

 

[houheffna]

How someone can look at McGrady's numbers from age 21-27 and feel that he is just average is beyond me.

 

[scottiepippen1994]

Dunleavys a great scorer.
just look at his statistics and percentage.

 

[czman]

LOL

Now Statboy has resorted to using CAREER points per game to measure A.I. and McGrady. Now THAT is a desperate argument.

Let's just conveniently ignore:

(a) A.I. averaged over 41 minutes per game (career);
McGrady averaged under 33 minutes per game (career)

(b) A.I. came into the league at age 21;
McGrady came into the league at age 18 (barely playing his first couple of years).

........not to mention the injuries McGrady went through while with the Rockets. Iverson was tough as nails but his injuries were ticky-tack compared to T-Mac's.

Actually I used all kinds of information. PPG career. Season breakdowns. Team success. Historical perspective.

I know it not nearly has useful as MPG. The facts are the facts are the facts. Iverson put up better numbers. He went deeper in the playoffs. He Did it a position and height like no player everl. Mcgrady is just another really good player. 30 years from now Iverson will still be the top scoring PG off all time (3rd at the worst) and McGrady will be lucky to be in the top 100 scorers all time and will probably be the ~60 at 2/3.

Nobody talks about Kiki Vandeweghe anymore. Nobody talks about Mitch Richmond. People don't even look back at Adrian Dantley as a great all time anymore. he retired ~20 years ago. Led the league in scoring twice. Played in the finals. In the pantheon of NBA memorable players McGrady will go down as average.

PS- McGrady was as versatile of a scorer as they came. Yes, when he went to Houston, he played a lot more at the top of the key with the ball in his hands constantly. But when he was with the Magic, he played off of the ball a lot and he was very effective.

And LOL at 'he lost to the Bucks.' The Bucks were way better than the Magic back then.

No offense, but that might be one the most ignorant things I have read on this board. He still cannot play off the ball. Did you even watch him on the Pistons or Spurs. My God, that is only the last two seasons, you cannot have forgotten already. He has no off the ball game. None.

 

[houheffna]

Because "nobody talks about....." means they were not a great scorer? And people don't look back at Dantley as an all time great......which somehow means he is not an all time great? Every sport has players like that...it doesn't mean they were not great players...greatness is usually accredited to performance and ability, not fame...unbelievable...