Paxson vs. Del Negro

[TheStig]

Shakes wrote:

I think he does suffer in the Skiles comparison. Then again, most coaches would. It's kind of like how if our SG doesn't average 30 PPG he's garbage because we came to expect that from MJ (no, not saying Skiles is the MJ of coaches).

I don't think he's awful, but I also don't think you can just say his problems are purely game management. Look at Salmons here and after he left. I'm a Skiles fan boy but I can't write it all off as Skiles getting the most out of Salmons, as Salmons is just doing what he was doing last year. I have to give some of the blame for Salmons play here to VDN, Salmons seemed to lose confidence. Likewise at times Kirk has looked afraid to take shots in a way he didn't under previous coaches. Deng has said in the past he's unsure what role he's supposed to play in the offense. That's more than just game management issues.

I don't think Salmons and Kirk are good examples. Salmons did well last year, I think it was more playing out of postion and Kirk has been shooting poorly before VDN got here. VDN was the third coach in the kirk cold streak.

Any failing of VDN reflects badly on management anyway. They hired him after all. But I think asking that the top paid player be in the top 2 isn't really on management so much. Our top two players have been rookie contract guys that whole time. What do you want them to do, get rid of all the non-rookie contracts?

I disagree, if your best players are under rookie deals then you shouldn't be having causalities because of the salary cap.

Well obviously, you could say that about any team. Management bringing in the right players has more impact on results than coaching the players you have.

Right but minus a no brainer and a good pick in Noah, we have fumbled everything else. Obviously it isn't that obvious to JR.

 

[Shakes]

TheStig wrote:

I don't think Salmons and Kirk are good examples. Salmons did well last year, I think it was more playing out of postion and Kirk has been shooting poorly before VDN got here. VDN was the third coach in the kirk cold streak.

I'm not talking about percentages, I'm talking about them looking hesitant.

I disagree, if your best players are under rookie deals then you shouldn't be having causalities because of the salary cap.

Which isn't your original claim. I'm with you on the idea that management have done poorly when negotiating contracts. But is it management's fault that our rookies have been better than our non rookies? Well I guess it is, damn them for being good at the draft!

Right but minus a no brainer and a good pick in Noah, we have fumbled everything else. Obviously it isn't that obvious to JR.

We're 41-41 with max cap space. Keeping an average team with space in a year that three superstars become free agents strikes be as good management.

Both VDN and management have had their flaws, but I'd rate management above average and VDN below average.

 

[pinkizdead]

Diddy1122 wrote:

houheffna wrote:

Also, I didn't hear about Krause barging into Phil's office with a stepladder and getting in Phil's face challenging Phil to a fight...

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

pretty sure it was a steal cage death match.

 

[TheStig]

Shakes wrote:

I'm not talking about percentages, I'm talking about them looking hesitant.

Kirk was passing up wide open threes because he was bricking up shots. So the percentages had a big deal to do with it.

Which isn't your original claim. I'm with you on the idea that management have done poorly when negotiating contracts. But is it management's fault that our rookies have been better than our non rookies? Well I guess it is, damn them for being good at the draft!

Name any contending team that has both its best players under rookie deals? It just doesn't happen. With us, it was a combo of falling ass backwards into a #1 pick not drafting well.

We're 41-41 with max cap space. Keeping an average team with space in a year that three superstars become free agents strikes be as good management.

Both VDN and management have had their flaws, but I'd rate management above average and VDN below average.

Wow, we have put out an average product more or less for the last 5 years, its not very impressive.

I would reverse your rankings. VDN will go somewhere else and succeed. Not Phil Jackson success but he will do well.

 

[Shakes]

TheStig wrote:

Name any contending team that has both its best players under rookie deals? It just doesn't happen. With us, it was a combo of falling ass backwards into a #1 pick not drafting well.

I'm not arguing that. But look at the contenders and in the most part they drafted their best player. So really your complaint is that we didn't draft a superstar (which weren't available at the positions we drafted) 5 years ago.

Wow, we have put out an average product more or less for the last 5 years, its not very impressive.

We've been an average team while creating cap space twice. I never said it was awesome, but it's not an epic fail either.

I would reverse your rankings. VDN will go somewhere else and succeed. Not Phil Jackson success but he will do well.

I don't doubt it, with a few exceptions like Skiles the coach is probably only worth a win or two either way.

 

[Frank Breakfast Styleham]

So this really happened!? I thought this was a late April Fools Day article and just brushed it off the other day.

That's unacceptable. Paxson should be fired immediately. You don't do that to your head coach. And over playing Noah for 2 minutes?

Paxson, that was unacceptable.

 

[pinkizdead]

or you could clean house and fire everyone. No one seems to support my coach noah idea. So... Fred's the new coach and doug thonus is the gm.(possibly the new athletic trainer as well) i'm sure you could bring mark and kush as assistant coachs.

how much worse could it be than gar and vinny?

 

[TheStig]

Funny how I don't see anyone calling out for pax to be thrown in jail for assualt and battery after how strongly people went after Arenas.

 

[pinkizdead]

guns and fists are two very different things.

plus vinny would have to press charges.

 

[??? ??????]

I don't understand the Scott Skiles comparison.

Record of post-dynasty head coaches.

1. Vinny Del Negro 82-82 (.500)
2. Scott Skiles: 165-172 (.490)
3. Jim Boylan 24-32 (.429)
4. Bill Cartwright 51-100 (.338)
5. Tim Floyd 49-190 (.205)

 

[houheffna]

Funny how I don't see anyone calling out for pax to be thrown in jail for assualt and battery after how strongly people went after Arenas

You can't be serious...

 

[TheStig]

pinkizdead wrote:

guns and fists are two very different things.

plus vinny would have to press charges.

Unloaded guns that caused no harm and weren't used a threatening manner. Fists that made physical contact are worse. Vinny doesn't have to press charges, the district attorney can without him, no one on the wizards pressed charges.

 

[pinkizdead]

well it's not the harm that can be created/ the degree of violence, it's just society hates guns.

i'm not justifying it. unloaded guns will get oyu in trouble

the other thing is ... in a theoretical sense the victim in a hidden gun case would be society at large, so a prosecutor would be more apt to charge him in spite of any particular party bringing charges.

vinny got punched, if vinny isn't going to press charges and it isn't a serious matter, i dont think anyone else would.

however i wouldn't be surprised if pax got a fine. who knows, maybe we get lucky and stern suspends vinny from a game( i'm kidding. no one wants to see what bernie bickerstaff has left)

 

[houheffna]

Unloaded guns that caused no harm and weren't used a threatening manner. Fists that made physical contact are worse. Vinny doesn't have to press charges, the district attorney can without him, no one on the wizards pressed charges.

What fists? Who got punched? That is a misdemeanor, IF they had a fight. Carrying guns around is a felony in D.C....period.

 

[Shakes]

??? ?????? wrote:

I don't understand the Scott Skiles comparison.

Record of post-dynasty head coaches.

1. Vinny Del Negro 82-82 (.500)
2. Scott Skiles: 165-172 (.490)
3. Jim Boylan 24-32 (.429)
4. Bill Cartwright 51-100 (.338)
5. Tim Floyd 49-190 (.205)

Coaches records have to be compared relative to the talent they had. I think Skiles overall had less than Vinny has had. I mean that 47 win team in 04-05 had nobody on it as good as Rose or Noah this year. On paper even knowing how Skiles got them to play it still looks like a 35 win team. I mean Chandler up until that point hadn't done much, Hinrich only had an OK rookie year, Eddy Curry who is a garbage basketball player who happens to score a bit, and three rookies. That's a 47 win team? Especially after starting 2-13?

Skiles was also brought in mid season. It's pretty hard for a coach to turn everything around at that point. Take out the 19-47 partial season and his record looks a lot better.

 

[Shakes]

TheStig wrote:

Funny how I don't see anyone calling out for pax to be thrown in jail for assualt and battery after how strongly people went after Arenas.

Well allegedly Vinny started it, so Pax could argue self defense. If Pax wants to press charges against Vinny, go for it. He can't call bad inbound plays from jail right?

 

[TheStig]

pinkizdead wrote:

well it's not the harm that can be created/ the degree of violence, it's just society hates guns.

i'm not justifying it. unloaded guns will get oyu in trouble

the other thing is ... in a theoretical sense the victim in a hidden gun case would be society at large, so a prosecutor would be more apt to charge him in spite of any particular party bringing charges.

vinny got punched, if vinny isn't going to press charges and it isn't a serious matter, i dont think anyone else would.

however i wouldn't be surprised if pax got a fine. who knows, maybe we get lucky and stern suspends vinny from a game( i'm kidding. no one wants to see what bernie bickerstaff has left)

Well he didn't throw a punch it was more grabbing a tie and shoving but still in appropriate of managment level employees.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

Unloaded guns that caused no harm and weren't used a threatening manner. Fists that made physical contact are worse. Vinny doesn't have to press charges, the district attorney can without him, no one on the wizards pressed charges.

What fists? Who got punched? That is a misdemeanor, IF they had a fight. Carrying guns around is a felony in D.C....period.

Its cause Pax is white. When a black guy has a unloaded weapon he gets sent to jail and halfway houses, when a white guy picks a fight nothing happens. Thats society.


I hope you realize I am being facetious about the whole thing. While I don't think Pax should be charged I think he needs to be fined and there needs to be a through understanding of what it is like to be coach of the Chicago Bulls. Its not the ordinary nba coaching job.

 

[houheffna]

Well allegedly Vinny started it, so Pax could argue self defense. If Pax wants to press charges against Vinny, go for it. He can't call bad inbound plays from jail right?

The "Vinny started it" angle came out later on...I believe that is an organizational thing to cover Pax. I believe the original version is true. Pax is the one who initiated any physicality. And I think Pax is more embarrassed about it than VDN, for the record, I want both of them gone...

 

[TheStig]

Personally, I'd use it as an excuse to clean house. Gar, Pax and Vinny, don't let the door hit you on the way out. But it would be interesting if anything more came of this if Vinny is let go and Pax stays on. I don't think Reinsdorf will fire Gar or Pax but I do see Pax having an even further reduced role next year.