PFF Grades: 2013 and 2014 Bears DEs

[AHSIllini32]

I love the whole pressure and hits stats. You guys think football is like moneyball, but unfortunately there are too many moving parts for a stat to have much meaning. If you can get go back and watch a few Raiders games and see if he jumps out to you when rushing the passer. Also ask yourself is he going against the better pass blocking LTs or is he constantly going against the typically slower RTs?

So many things to factor in that those stats are really useless.

Actually, Emery provided stats that prove pressuring a QB effects his ability to complete passes but I mean whatever. Not to mention getting pressure and hits on the QB allows other players to actually get sacks when the QB tries to evade pressure.

 

[Xplosive]

For my money I would have tried to trade up for Clowney not because "omg Clowney has the best combine stats ever" but instead because if all goes to plan this will be the highest the bears are picking for the next several years and impact pass rushers are probably the hardest defensive position to fill...

...I just would have preferred to see something like that and then address other needs via FA/later round picks. For example, would have it been that bad taking a chance on Melton and Tillman returning to form at CB and DT respectively and using Houston and Young's money that way?

did I miss the draft??? I agree about making a trade up in the draft but its a longshot at best. There is still no reason to talk about it in past tense as if now its any less likely just because they signed Willie Young for $3M per.

The Bears DL needed an overhaul so the guys they have added are part of the process, trust that Emery has a plan and lets see how it shakes out after the draft at least.

 

[bullsadonisdna]

So you're telling me that two guys on two of the bottom half pass defense teams had a lot of chances to rush the passer?! No way!

I also like how you ignore they had 9 combined sacks between them.

All those pressures and hurries really helped their teams pass defense!

Oh wait.

Honestly dude at least according to one website Houston was the BPA at the position. So much more worried about safety, cb and mlb.

 

[FirstTimer]

Actually, Emery provided stats that prove pressuring a QB effects his ability to complete passes but I mean whatever. Not to mention getting pressure and hits on the QB allows other players to actually get sacks when the QB tries to evade pressure.

Not surprisingly you missed the entire point of what he said.

 

[FirstTimer]

Honestly dude at least according to one website Houston was the BPA at the position. So much more worried about safety, cb and mlb.

k.?

I'm on the record as saying I don't even think the Houston signing is "bad". I just don't think he's a better pass rusher than Peppers.

 

[Xplosive]

Did you intentionally cut out the next part of my quote or are you just being a Special person?

I'll leave the retarding to the experts such as yourself. How are the Bears "doing it wrong", your whole theory is dumb and the fact that you later backtrack by saying "you can only spend on the players available" only contradicts the first statement you made that "in your opinion" they were doing the wrong things.

 

[Bear Pride]

Was Peppers better than all those players.......probably, but we just didn't have that luxury....we addressed needs and our gambling on value for these players......we were in cap purgatory. It had to be done.

I say we got a lot for the money we saved on Pep. I don't know what people expect. Most are unreasonable, imo. Emery obviously has a plan. I like what I'm seeing. Personally, I thought we might just stick with Houston, but to get Young as well, great, imo.

Young may not be that great compared to Pep in his heyday, but Young is no slouch either. The Bears are putting together a versatile DL that will get pass rush as a team for sure, imo. I'm looking at a DL like this on 3rd and long and thinking we can get some rush:

Shea - Houston - Donald - Ratliff - Young

Shea will be in a new role but can be affective rushing still, imo, as a LB. Draft Donald at #14 and this awesome DL is a reality.

 

[FirstTimer]

I'll leave the retarding to the experts such as yourself. How are the Bears "doing it wrong", your whole theory is dumb and the fact that you later backtrack by saying "you can only spend on the players available" only contradicts the first statement you made that "in your opinion" they were doing the wrong things.

How did I "backtrack" by saying that in the same exact post? It's not like I changed my mind. Are you Special person? Seriously? The Bears "are doing ti wrong" if they don't take an impact DT at #14..which is what I've said and which is why I closed with this: "If the Bears can grab a starting level DT in the draft and once the pass rushing end situation settles out then we can really start to evaluate the front." and said this "I think I'll like the composition of the Bears DL a lot more if they can snag an impact DT at #14 and then hope that Houston can be the pass rusher the Bears expect him to be"

For real. Either read and understand or GTFO

 

[beckdawg]

What? I don't get your figures. Cutting Pep saved us $9 mil in cap money. Houston's and Young's cap numbers will be $6.5 mil this year. That leaves $2.5 mil in cap money. That pays for the two S's we picked up in FA'cy. So basically we replaced Pep with Houston, Young, Mundy, and Jennings..... and probably still have a few dollars left. How is this a bad thing? And to compare Pep to Young ... fuckin ridiculous!

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that Peppers was worth the $9 mil they saved especially when you factor in him being off the books next year...etc. I'm just saying comparing Peppers at $18.3 to Young at $3 isn't really an accurate way to look at it because half of that $18.3 was gone regardless of what the bears did or didn't do. It's essentially the $9 mil they saved vs the roughly $3 mil AAV of Young. At $9 mil to keep Peppers I would say no but if you're taking out the money aspect I'd still rather have Peppers than Young which is why I hoped they could cut him and re-sign him to something cheaper. For example, had they cut Peppers and signed him at say a 2-3 year deal for $4-5 mil a season I'd rather have Peppers at those prices than Young at $3 mil AAV.

 

[remydat]

Subjective stats are worthless. It says Willie Young is a better pass rusher than Peppers because he gets more hurries. Really? :lol:

You can change around the arbitrary weights of a number of statistics until they tell you what you want. Doesn't mean it has any value.

Is a sack worth more than an Int caused because of one of these hurries. Or an incompletion on 3rd down vs a sack on 1st down when the offense picks up the 1st down anyways?

The point here is that there is more to getting pressure than simply recording sacks. Like it or not, Young got more overall pressure than Peppers. Of course, it would be great if he got more sacks but getting more pressure overall in a Tampa 2 that seek to generate turnovers as a result of that pressure is pretty important.

Then why is his rush grade so much higher?

Because he likely doesn't disappear on as many pass rushing plays as Peppers. PFF most of all is a measure of consistency not necessarily of overall impact plays. Peppers pass rush grade is worse because relative to Young the PFF grades felt on a play by play basis Peppers was more likely to be blocked without doing anything noteworthy than Young was.

 

[modo]

I say we got a lot for the money we saved on Pep. I don't know what people expect. Most are unreasonable, imo. Emery obviously has a plan. I like what I'm seeing. Personally, I thought we might just stick with Houston, but to get Young as well, great, imo.

Young may not be that great compared to Pep in his heyday, but Young is no slouch either. The Bears are putting together a versatile DL that will get pass rush as a team for sure, imo. I'm looking at a DL like this on 3rd and long and thinking we can get some rush:

Shea - Houston - Donald - Ratliff - Young

Shea will be in a new role but can be affective rushing still, imo, as a LB. Draft Donald at #14 and this awesome DL is a reality.

I will be interested to see what fronts and rushes they put together......this will be a true test for what Tucker is capable of from a scheme standpoint.

 

[Kazu2324]

I'm a bit confused with the whole debate of this thread. I get that Young/Houston aren't nearly as great at rushing the QB as Peppers will be. But at the same time, weren't most people on this thread all for releasing Peppers due to his cap? Now he's gone and all of a sudden people are screaming that we have no one to replace him. Isn't that exactly what everyone was predicting before FA started though? This is one of those things that HAD to happen eventually. Who exactly would people have wanted to be signed to replace Peppers? Bennett didn't want to come here, Johnson is the same as Houston, and the Bears are still paying for an aging DE that isn't even on our roster, why spend another 10 mil on another aging DE? I'm just confused as to where the anger is directed, because what exactly are the alternatives?

 

[beckdawg]

did I miss the draft??? I agree about making a trade up in the draft but its a longshot at best. There is still no reason to talk about it in past tense as if now its any less likely just because they signed Willie Young for $3M per.

The Bears DL needed an overhaul so the guys they have added are part of the process, trust that Emery has a plan and lets see how it shakes out after the draft at least.

I mean that's fair and I did acknowledge it still could happen but given they've spent $10 mil on DEs and I'm pretty sure they only have 2 CBs on their active roster right now(Jennings and Frey) of which only one was a starter it seems less likely that they are going to dump a lot of picks. Honestly, if they do still make that sort of move i"d be cool with it even if it meant throwing out some nobody opposite Jennings.

 

[modo]

I'm a bit confused with the whole debate of this thread. I get that Young/Houston aren't nearly as great at rushing the QB as Peppers will be. But at the same time, weren't most people on this thread all for releasing Peppers due to his cap? Now he's gone and all of a sudden people are screaming that we have no one to replace him. Isn't that exactly what everyone was predicting before FA started though? This is one of those things that HAD to happen eventually. Who exactly would people have wanted to be signed to replace Peppers? Bennett didn't want to come here, Johnson is the same as Houston, and the Bears are still paying for an aging DE that isn't even on our roster, why spend another 10 mil on another aging DE? I'm just confused as to where the anger is directed, because what exactly are the alternatives?

Fans have been programed to want the big name.......we did go after the big name and came up short, but not for lack of trying.

 

[remydat]

Can someone please provide the tape of all these double teams Peppers allegedly absorbed? Because as far as I can tell there was no need to double any of our pass rushers last year so this seems like an urban legend right up there with the Candy Man.

 

[FirstTimer]

Is a sack worth more than an Int caused because of one of these hurries. Or an incompletion on 3rd down vs a sack on 1st down when the offense picks up the 1st down anyways?

The point here is that there is more to getting pressure than simply recording sacks. Like it or not, Young got more overall pressure than Peppers. Of course, it would be great if he got more sacks but getting more pressure overall in a Tampa 2 that seek to generate turnovers as a result of that pressure is pretty important.

No way. There is also more to the circumstances of getting pressure than simply rushing at the QB. These pass rush situations don't occur in a vacuum. They aren't equal across the board in both talent faced, scheme(for and against), etc. You have to start splitting hairs about what's more impressive, Peppers numbers getting double teamed on a defense with no real help on the line and a defense that was gouged on the run or Houston and Young doing there's against singles against teams throwing the ball all over on them, and this even goes into ignoring the talent or teams they faced and those teams general dispositions to throw the ball. So even trying to normalize the number to a "per pass attempt" number over the course of only 16 games is incredibly dubious and very murky.

STOP.

Houston was a decent to good signing.

Peppers is a better pass rusher.

I don't get why it can't be that simple.

 

[Kazu2324]

Fans have been programed to want the big name.......we did go after the big name and came up short, but not for lack of trying.

But even Bennett isn't a 10+ sack guy in his career... so essentially, there would be people freaking out regardless of who was signed.

 

[Kazu2324]

And also, the hurries/disruptions argument seems to have some double standards. Wasn't Jordan Mills' criticism of being a poor RT in PFF because of the 'hurries' no one is sure about? Wouldn't that go both ways with the hurries that a DE could force? I'm glad that the players we picked up are more disruptive than the ones we had, but it doesn't mean that we'll get the pressure expected from them.

 

[remydat]

No way. There is also more to the circumstances of getting pressure than simply rushing at the QB. These pass rush situations don't occur in a vacuum. They aren't equal across the board in both talent faced, scheme(for and against), etc. You have to start splitting hairs about what's more impressive, Peppers numbers getting double teamed on a defense with no real help on the line and a defense that was gouged on the run or Houston and Young doing there's against singles against teams throwing the ball all over on them, and this even goes into ignoring the talent or teams they faced and those teams general dispositions to throw the ball. So even trying to normalize the number to a "per pass attempt" number over the course of only 16 games is incredibly dubious and very murky.

STOP.

Houston was a decent to good signing.

Peppers is a better pass rusher.

I don't get why it can't be that simple.

Maybe you missed this so I will ask again. Can someone please provide the tape of all these double teams Peppers allegedly absorbed? Because as far as I can tell there was no need to double any of our pass rushers last year so this seems like an urban legend right up there with the Candy Man.

It is very possible Peppers is a better pass rusher. The issue here is you haven't really provided any evidence to that fact except he had more sacks as if sacks is the only measure of a pass rusher. It is obviously importantly but so is getting pressure without sacking the QB if it leads to Incompletions and Interceptions.

You claim Peppers was doubled teamed all the time then prove it. Otherwise, you are getting upset at people using stats that are available to form an opinion while all you are using is unsubstantiated opinions and speculation.

 

[Bear Pride]

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that Peppers was worth the $9 mil they saved especially when you factor in him being off the books next year...etc. I'm just saying comparing Peppers at $18.3 to Young at $3 isn't really an accurate way to look at it because half of that $18.3 was gone regardless of what the bears did or didn't do. It's essentially the $9 mil they saved vs the roughly $3 mil AAV of Young. At $9 mil to keep Peppers I would say no but if you're taking out the money aspect I'd still rather have Peppers than Young which is why I hoped they could cut him and re-sign him to something cheaper. For example, had they cut Peppers and signed him at say a 2-3 year deal for $4-5 mil a season I'd rather have Peppers at those prices than Young at $3 mil AAV.

Yeah, but your way doesn't make sense to me. How can anyone make any comparison of KEEPING PEP as opposed to cutting him without counting Pep for the $18.3 mil it would take to keep him? If you're not going to take into account what it would cost to keep him, it virtually makes any comparison to Pep's number .... well null and void. Even bringing Pep into the convo performance wise means NOTHING.