Replacement GM and Coach

[blackpep72]

If a contender would take on Kane, I could see one taking on Toews. Toews could still be a fantastic 2nd line center or even 1st line, if a contender is deep enough.

It will depend on the direction of the team. If they fail to make the post-season this year, I'll be fine with drastic changes. It will suck to see any member of the core -- even Seabrook -- in a different jersey, but that's how it goes 99% of the time. It's rare players stick around on one team.

2nd line for that salary i think not.

 

[Granada]

2nd line for that salary i think not.

Pittsburgh Penguins and the Toronto Maple Leafs say hi. And that's just two off the top of my head.

 

[Diehardfan]

I may be wrong (it certainly wouldn't be the first time) but I'm really not positive that JC is Stan's guy. I mean a coach and GM really need to be on the same page. Doesn't mean dick if they hate each other but they need to work together on getting their personel right....basically do their damn jobs. Remember how much Phil Jackson and Jerry Krause hated each other but Krause always seemed to get the right guy that would fit into Jackson's triangle O. It's a different sport but the philosophy is the same and I'm not seeing that here with Bowman and Crash. The players Stan is providing don't appear to fit the scheme.

 

[Granada]

I may be wrong (it certainly wouldn't be the first time) but I'm really not positive that JC is Stan's guy. I mean a coach and GM really need to be on the same page. Doesn't mean dick if they hate each other but they need to work together on getting their personel right....basically do their damn jobs. Remember how much Phil Jackson and Jerry Krause hated each other but Krause always seemed to get the right guy that would fit into Jackson's triangle O. It's a different sport but the philosophy is the same and I'm not seeing that here with Bowman and Crash. The players Stan is providing don't appear to fit the scheme.

Colliton is a place-holder. He served his purpose in being someone the org. could use to replace who they wanted out at the time, which was Q. He also can be yet another fall-guy if things don't go well this year.

Bowman's past 2 off-season were complete opposites of each other. He actually tried this off-season. The one prior (Q's last off-season), he did absolutely nothing -- that wasn't an accident. It was almost like he was setting Q up to fail. So whether Colliton is Bowman's guy or not (I think he is; so was Barry Smith by the way, but I digress), the fact of the matter is that, Bowman actually took action to provide him a decent team -- he did not do that in Q's last year. Manning, Davidson, Ward, and Kunitz -- that's really all he provided in Q's last year, which was an utter joke. Shaw, Lehner, and De Haan (and even Maata to an extent) were much more substantial.

 

[MassHavoc]

Colliton is a place-holder. He served his purpose in being someone the org. could use to replace who they wanted out at the time, which was Q. He also can be yet another fall-guy if things don't go well this year.

Bowman's past 2 off-season were complete opposites of each other. He actually tried this off-season. The one prior (Q's last off-season), he did absolutely nothing -- that wasn't an accident. It was almost like he was setting Q up to fail. So whether Colliton is Bowman's guy or not (I think he is; so was Barry Smith by the way, but I digress), the fact of the matter is that, Bowman actually took action to provide him a decent team -- he did not do that in Q's last year. Manning, Davidson, Ward, and Kunitz -- that's really all he provided in Q's last year, which was an utter joke. Shaw, Lehner, and De Haan (and even Maata to an extent) were much more substantial.

Well.. you can say that he is a place holder, but they already gave him an extension didn't they? or the orignal was for like 3 years. If they had any intention of him being a stopgap, they wouldn't have bothered trying to legitimize him up front?

EDIT: He's making 1.4 through end of next year. He's not going anywhere unless Bowman does.

 

[Diehardfan]

Place holders don't get to revamp a system that has been in use for 10 years.......

 

[Granada]

Place holders don't get to revamp a system that has been in use for 10 years.......

Sure they do -- if they want to original coach gone bad enough. Do you not remember Trent Yawney?

 

[Granada]

Well.. you can say that he is a place holder, but they already gave him an extension didn't they? or the orignal was for like 3 years. If they had any intention of him being a stopgap, they wouldn't have bothered trying to legitimize him up front?

EDIT: He's making 1.4 through end of next year. He's not going anywhere unless Bowman does.

That isn't a long contract or an exorbitant amount of money, so why you think he wouldn't go anywhere, I'm not sure.

I'd be fine with them firing Bowman before Colliton -- or both -- but I believe the org. will unfortunately protect Bowman. They already did so once when the choice was between him and a future hall-of-fame coach.

 

[Diehardfan]

Sure they do -- if they want to original coach gone bad enough. Do you not remember Trent Yawney?

I hope you're being sarcastic. Trent Yawney was a terrible coach with a terrible team. One year wonderless. Nearly last in both GF and GA....replaced Sutter who everyone knew could coach but was strapped with a group of awful me-first players. He annouced he was quiting to care for his down syndrome son but it wasn't really a secret that he just wanted out of Dodge.
They brought Yawney in.....did virtually nothing but look stupid and got launched a year later early in the season before he could destroy a group of kids lead by Keith and Seabrook. Brought in one of my favorites of all time in Savard to coach....I hated it when they dumped him for Q. It was obviously the right move but I didn't know that at the time and was pissed.

So, you're comparing Crash to Yawney? Wow....you must really hate JC.

 

[vadarx]

If a contender would take on Kane, I could see one taking on Toews. Toews could still be a fantastic 2nd line center or even 1st line, if a contender is deep enough.

It will depend on the direction of the team. If they fail to make the post-season this year, I'll be fine with drastic changes. It will suck to see any member of the core -- even Seabrook -- in a different jersey, but that's how it goes 99% of the time. It's rare players stick around on one team.

I'm not sure a contender would want to try and afford that Toews contract, whereas I guarantee one would for Kane.

I also don't think you get much in return besides cap space for Toews. Kane would actually bring in a good/great return.

regardless, I hope neither is traded and both are among those rare players that play their entire career for one franchise that you spoke of.

also, nothing would please me more than seeing Toews pass Yzerman as the longest serving captain in NHL history, although I have a feeling that honor is going to end up being Crosby's....

 

[blackpep72]

Pittsburgh Penguins and the Toronto Maple Leafs say hi. And that's just two off the top of my head.

How would Toronto fit that under the cap ?

 

[Granada]

I hope you're being sarcastic. Trent Yawney was a terrible coach with a terrible team. One year wonderless. Nearly last in both GF and GA....replaced Sutter who everyone knew could coach but was strapped with a group of awful me-first players. He annouced he was quiting to care for his down syndrome son but it wasn't really a secret that he just wanted out of Dodge.
They brought Yawney in.....did virtually nothing but look stupid and got launched a year later early in the season before he could destroy a group of kids lead by Keith and Seabrook. Brought in one of my favorites of all time in Savard to coach....I hated it when they dumped him for Q. It was obviously the right move but I didn't know that at the time and was pissed.

So, you're comparing Crash to Yawney? Wow....you must really hate JC.

Colliton hasn't proved any different. At least not yet. But that wasn't your original argument. Your original argument, was that green coaches/place-holders wouldn't replace long-tenured coaches -- which is absurd, because it happens in every sport.

I didn't have a problem when they dumped Savard for Q. I remember the outrage at the time; it was similar to when Havlat wasn't re-signed (in favor of Hossa), which I also had no problem with at the time.

Colliton doesn't annoy me as much as he did last year, when he'd smirk in interviews after games where the team got their asses utterly handed to them, so there's that. But when they're still giving up 40-50+ shots per game, he certainly hasn't won me over all the way yet.

 

[Granada]

How would Toronto fit that under the cap ?

I wasn't saying Toews would go to Toronto -- you said teams wouldn't afford that type of salary for a 2LC; Toronto already does with Matthews and Tavares.

 

[Granada]

I'm not sure a contender would want to try and afford that Toews contract, whereas I guarantee one would for Kane.

I also don't think you get much in return besides cap space for Toews. Kane would actually bring in a good/great return.

regardless, I hope neither is traded and both are among those rare players that play their entire career for one franchise that you spoke of.

also, nothing would please me more than seeing Toews pass Yzerman as the longest serving captain in NHL history, although I have a feeling that honor is going to end up being Crosby's....

That's fair, but I think it's tough to say either way. Like I said before, I still think Toews could be an excellent player, especially on a deep team. Unlike Kane, you can still play him in any situation -- PP, PK, late in games, d-zone draws. Couple that with the fact that he plays arguably the toughest position in the game and has more playoff experience than most in the league, that would be enticing to teams. Granted he may not be the lights-out player he used to be; I'd still say he's a damn good player that teams would want -- but like I said, tough to say definitively.

I also feel the same way about Keith, for what it's worth. I think teams would jump at the chance to have him -- not just because his salary is low, but because he would still be an excellent player on a Cup-contending team.

 

[anotheridiot]

Colliton hasn't proved any different. At least not yet. But that wasn't your original argument. Your original argument, was that green coaches/place-holders wouldn't replace long-tenured coaches -- which is absurd, because it happens in every sport.

I didn't have a problem when they dumped Savard for Q. I remember the outrage at the time; it was similar to when Havlat wasn't re-signed (in favor of Hossa), which I also had no problem with at the time.

Colliton doesn't annoy me as much as he did last year, when he'd smirk in interviews after games where the team got their asses utterly handed to them, so there's that. But when they're still giving up 40-50+ shots per game, he certainly hasn't won me over all the way yet.

Just from what I posted in the Vegas thread that really belongs here.

Did you see that article, that JC has changed the system to allow the hawks to play offensively (not offensive defense) like they did under Q. Activating D, more carrying into the zone than dump and chase that was not working.

So he is being credited for making the decision to let the team play like they want to, not like he wants them to, and may save his job because he is coaching less

 

[Granada]

Just from what I posted in the Vegas thread that really belongs here.

Did you see that article, that JC has changed the system to allow the hawks to play offensively (not offensive defense) like they did under Q. Activating D, more carrying into the zone than dump and chase that was not working.

So he is being credited for making the decision to let the team play like they want to, not like he wants them to, and may save his job because he is coaching less

Right, yes. If we're thinking of the same article, what I got from the piece was basically this: Colliton went back to "old" (Q) way of doing things.

So now we have a coach with a shit system, reversing course 15-20 games into a season. Throw all the rookies and new faces we have this year into the equation, and it's beyond frightening to think what can happen. Maybe it works out -- who knows -- but the fact Colliton tried implementing his system, and felt desperate to revert back to the old system, isn't very reassuring, which is an understatement.

And Colliton is using the same 1-3-1 PP that Quenneville was implementing just before he was jettisoned. So what has he really changed/improved?

 

[Diehardfan]

Colliton hasn't proved any different. At least not yet. But that wasn't your original argument. Your original argument, was that green coaches/place-holders wouldn't replace long-tenured coaches -- which is absurd, because it happens in every sport.

I didn't have a problem when they dumped Savard for Q. I remember the outrage at the time; it was similar to when Havlat wasn't re-signed (in favor of Hossa), which I also had no problem with at the time.

Colliton doesn't annoy me as much as he did last year, when he'd smirk in interviews after games where the team got their asses utterly handed to them, so there's that. But when they're still giving up 40-50+ shots per game, he certainly hasn't won me over all the way yet.

It was a one line post, surprised you're not comprehending it. Never said anything about green coaches, never said anything about placeholders not replacing long-tenured coaches. All I said was that teams do not bring in a guy to coach short term and allow him to revamp everything. The Hawks have allowed this which one would have to think that they didn't hire him to be a placeholder. Which is not good news.....and to answer your question about JC.....I don't see where has improved anything. He's got a more talented team than Q had and is doing less with it.

BTW, Havlat might have been biggest me-first guy in the locker room. Pretty much an overrated pussy who wouldn't play if he had a cold.

 

[Raskolnikov]

Right, yes. If we're thinking of the same article, what I got from the piece was basically this: Colliton went back to "old" (Q) way of doing things.

So now we have a coach with a shit system, reversing course 15-20 games into a season. Throw all the rookies and new faces we have this year into the equation, and it's beyond frightening to think what can happen. Maybe it works out -- who knows -- but the fact Colliton tried implementing his system, and felt desperate to revert back to the old system, isn't very reassuring, which is an understatement.

And Colliton is using the same 1-3-1 PP that Quenneville was implementing just before he was jettisoned. So what has he really changed/improved?

well if you saw the "system" in action it makes perfect sense to abandon it. JC would be a great coach for the Senators to keep grinding out bottom 5 finishes for another decade but pretend like they are trying and get lots of good efforts from the hopeless Ottawa fans. Let him go there or back to Sweden.

 

[Granada]

It was a one line post, surprised you're not comprehending it. Never said anything about green coaches, never said anything about placeholders not replacing long-tenured coaches. All I said was that teams do not bring in a guy to coach short term and allow him to revamp everything. The Hawks have allowed this which one would have to think that they didn't hire him to be a placeholder. Which is not good news.....and to answer your question about JC.....I don't see where has improved anything. He's got a more talented team than Q had and is doing less with it.

BTW, Havlat might have been biggest me-first guy in the locker room. Pretty much an overrated pussy who wouldn't play if he had a cold.

You said place-holders don't get the chance to revamp a system that was in place for 10 years (post 46). Yes, they do. You can find examples of it in every sport.

If you think Colliton is anything but a place-holder, you're kidding yourself. Also, we all better pray -- at least from what we've seen thus far -- that he is a place-holder.

 

[Raskolnikov]

On a side note of third dimensional chess....

I don't think JC is on this level but if he is or isn't it may work out the same way positive for us.

The issues that JC was trying to address with his "system" don't work well with this team...in fact, if they are paying close attention to advanced analytics like they say they are those numbers should have told them it was one of the worst systems deployed for any period of time in the last 20 years. Those numbers CANNOT be pretty. I haven't seen anything so stupid in the NHL in a looooooong time. I actually haven't ever seen a team this good get dominated 40 shots to 10 for 2 weeks consecutively. Maybe "shots" is too simple for them...I should step back and let these genius's work. I'm sure they went to school for math and everything.

So that said...I think my feelings on "the system" are clear. I think JC is a smart guy, but a young smart guy and doesn't see how bad his own shit stinks yet...he just got a full taste though.

Anyway...I think working on those things required to run that system can pay off for this hawks team in the short term. They need to play to their strengths like any team in professional sports in order to create long term winning advantages game after game. Be you as Nagy would say, but that doesn't mean some practice trying to do things the hard way and working on those skill sets can't expand the teams abilities a bit and get some more guys doing those things when opportunities present themselves naturally. I believe some of the veterans had stopped doing those things so they should be more comfortable jumping out of their element and getting it done more often now...just not as the focus like JC was going for.

A failed experiment...but lets see what happens and I'm sure those skill sets will boost some areas the Hawks were too weak at, both in bringing in players that could do them and forcing all to contribute a little bit, put some practice and gameplay focus on those areas...even if it ruffled Kane/Toews feathers, could work out for the greater good later.