Report: Thibodeau not happy Deng could walk after season

clonetrooper264

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Um Byron Mullens is 7 feet tall 275 pounds, averages 10 points a game, shoots 70% from the line and over 30% from 3 point range. He is basically the same as Brad freaking Miller who you just tried to celebrate so you might wanna rethink that
:andruw:

Mullens would have filled some of the scoring and shooting we are looking for in a stretch four, the position he currently plays for the Bobcats. He is no allstar but his size and scoring allow him to be both PF and backup Center AND he was drafted way later than JJ.

I'm guessing you've never seen Byron Mullins play...his FG% is like 41% for his career, he can't play defense, and can't rebound. He has none of the passing ability that Brad Miller had either. So no, he's not like Brad Miller at all other than being a 7 footer who happens to shoot 3s. But even then, Mullins jacks up 3 after 3 at a poor percentage...Miller at least only took open 3s. Regardless, we have Mirotic out of all that mess and I'll take him over either player easily.

You are trying to defend Paxson by saying other teams made bad picks too... WHO CARES if Minnesota and Memphis were dumb too? The point isn't to find another example of incompetence and say "See, they are dumb too"....
The point is that Paxson isn't the only GM who makes "mistakes" during the draft. It happens all the time. Even the Spurs, who are a great drafting team, come up with duds every so often. You can't slam picks like James Johnson and Tyrus Thomas without also praising picks like Taj Gibson and Jimmy Butler.

Did the Bulls drafting Marques Teague in the first round even though they still have Derrick Rose make sense? YES not because of Derricks knee but because they still need other ball handlers and scorers. They certainly should have recognized the talent of other players like Lawson, Collinson, Holiday, and the better Teague. The GM's #1 job is to recognize talent and never pass up talent when its available regardless if you have a proven starter. This is why the Spurs have drafted so well. Its not about making random moves just for the sake of making them, its about knowing who to pay the big contracts, how to make smart deals that improve the team, and drafting talented players that fit your system regardless of who is currently on the roster.
Marquis was drafted to be our backup PG because he fell to us. James Johnson had talent and the potential to be a good fit next to Rose despite the fact that Luol Deng was ahead of him. He didn't pan out, but given the scouting reports at the time, Paxson did exactly what you wanted him to. But let's say we did draft Ty Lawson, who's to say we wouldn't have lost him to some other team in free agency just like we did Asik? If some team overpays (and that is what happened with Asik) for your players, is that the fault of your GM for not wanting to overpay? What if that player wants to leave because they want more playing time? There's nothing you can do about that. That's why picking a PG didn't make sense. Players as good as Ty Lawson or Jeff Teague would not want to be lifetime backups for Derrick Rose.

Carlos Boozer is on the Bulls because Paxson panicked and made a dumb move, no one would have paid Boozer the contract the Bulls gave him because of his injury history but since Paxson had never made a big move and thought people would be impressed he over reacted and got left looking silly when Wade/James and Bosh played him like a fool.
And I suppose it's Paxson's fault for being played like a fool too. How dare he not know that all 3 players were going to play together.

He should have signed David Lee who was cheaper, younger, and the better player. David Lee was even the safer pick because of Boozer's injury and he had just had a great year for the Knicks, but Paxson thought Boozer was the bigger name that would impress other free agents (again he was played like a fool).
Boozer was considered the better player in 2010 because David Lee's stats were considered inflated by the Mike D'Antoni offense. But yeah, Boozer was the bigger name. Not just to Paxson, but to the league. Our top options in that free agent class beyond the big 3 were probably Amare and Joe Johnson, both of whom were off the table before we had a shot. Boozer and Lee were next on the list and at the time I remember people wanting Boozer over Lee. Further, their stats per 36 minutes in 2009-2010 (and the past 3 years for that matter), are basically identical. Would we really be that much better if we had David Lee compared to Boozer? Even now, I'm not convinced. David Lee isn't that great a defender either and honestly the only thing he does better than Boozer is shoot free throws. And Lee is only a year younger than Boozer...that point is rather irrelevant.

And the health thing? Minus the infamous bag tripping incident, Boozer has been as healthy here as he ever was in Utah. David Lee has also suffered a major injury, so that really hasn't been much of a difference maker either.

Paxson has done a 50/50 job and he needs to be upgraded, just like mediocre players need to be upgraded.
Debateable, clearly. Given the cards he's been dealt, Paxson has done a pretty decent job. I'm not sure if many other GMs could've done much better in his place.

EDIT-
Like another poster stated, look at how he completed F*cked up the Omer Asik situation, we were waiting years for him just like Mirotic and after we developed him Paxson let him get away for nothing. Paxson is over his head and keeps getting Owned by smarter businessmen.
Paxson was stuck in a lose/lose situation with Asik and we all knew it. If we traded him during the season, we potentially sacrifice a chance at the title. The other option was to hope that he's not overpaid, but with the whole "poison pill" contract thing that was a near impossible situation.
 

Xplosive

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First of all David Lee is two years younger than Boozer, and at the time he had not had major injuries the way Boozer was known to be injury prone coming from his days with the Utah Jazz. Boozer had multiple years of missing 20+ games with injuries BEFORE the Paxson signed him, meanwhile David Lee didn't have a major injury until AFTER he joined GSW. So in hindsight Boozer has been healthier but not at the time Paxson was making his choice.

So in 2010 a 28 year old injury prone Boozer gets 4 year 60 Million ($15M per) and a 26 year old David Lee gets 6 year 80 ($13.M per). You claim the only thing Lee does better is shoot FT's but Boozer doesn't do ANYTHING better than Lee. I always thought David Lee was the better so don't think I'm just bringing up a random player to show that Paxson sucks, I though the Bulls were overpaying for a always injured player, luckily he hasn't been injury prone with the Bulls (knock on wood) but he is even more overpaid than I thought he would be AND he doesn't play well with Derrick Rose as we will see again this year.

David Lee is tougher, a better defender, and I like him better on the Pick and Roll versus dumping the ball in to Boozer in the post over and over to see him get the damn ball slapped out his hands....:smh:

Asik was the player Paxson was supposed to keep not Taj Gibson, Asik is actually a steal for the Rockets and is worth more than they are paying him. You don't find 7 foot players that can run as well as Omer, then you add in that he can play defense and block shots without fouling out, then add in that he is top 5 rebounder. Omer Asik and Joakim Noah are a formidable front court defensively and match Thibs system perfectly. Asik has more length than Gibson or Noah so he would defend the Dwight Howard types or the Chris Bosh types. Noah is too small for Howard and too slow for Bosh. Gibson is too small for either. So again Paxson made the wrong decision.

He made the wrong decision about Tyrus Thomas vs LaMarcus Aldridge, paying Omer Asik vs Gibson, Carlos Boozer vs David Lee, James Johnson... and the list goes on


2003: Kirk Hinrich instead of David West and doesn't resign Jamal Crawford

2004: Good year with Ben Gordon, Nocioni, and trading away a 1st pick to get Luol

2005: traded Eddie Curry to Knicks

2006: Had #2/#16 Picks could have had Aldridge, Brandon Roy (who I wanted), or Rudy Gay instead got Tyrus Thomas and Thabo Sefolosha, he also traded Tyson Chandler for J.R. Smith and P.J. Brown and then immediately traded Smith for a bag of peanuts.

2007: Joakim is the right pick, although Marc Gasol has turned into the better player.

At this point Paxson had 5 seasons and he should have been fired or replaced right along with Scott Skiles but Bulls got lucky with #1 pick and Paxson had his second good year.

2008: Got lucky with #1 pick and made the right decision to take Rose over Beasely and make good moves to bring in Salmons/Miller and the rights to wait for Omer Asik, but he completely over pays Luol Deng (6yr $80M).
I wanted to keep Ben Gordon and replace Luol (I was probably wrong) although Luol is not worth the money he is paid.

2009: GarPax is born and back to sucking with the James Johnson decision but wins with Taj Gibson and cleaned up his Tyrus mistake by getting a future 1st round pick (that probably won't be used until 2016).

2010: Asik arrives after waiting two years, but he fails to sign any superstar players and settles for over paying Boozer instead of signing the cheaper David Lee, they did resign Noah to 5yr $60M which is too much but I can agree with it.

2011: Signed Rip Hamilton instead of Caron Butler (I wanted), or Jamal Crawford. GarPax does get Jimmy Butler and the right to wait 3yrs (so far) on Mirotic by trading Norris Cole

2012: Got nothing for waiting 2 years for Asik instead of matching the 3yr $25M, deal they give Gibson 4yr $38M, they struck gold with Nate Robinson only to fail to resign him, and its too soon to say with Marquis Teague but I thought Draymond Green (GSW) out of Michigan State was a steal, we shall see....

2013: Ridiculous decision not to reward Nate Robinson for saving the season last year, I'm not impressed at all with Mike Dunleavy Jr anything more than Kyle Korver 2.0, so hopefully we have the rookie of the year and I just don't know it yet.


Ultimately when you look at what they've done, GarPax has been very mediocre with one good year out of every four years. This team does not look like a contender this year because they still lack another scoring threat and the interior size to defend against longer players like Bosh, Roy Hibbert, Dwight Howard, etc...

Bring on the season, I hope I am wrong and GarPax get this team to the finals. If not they should be GONE, because if the Paxson plan hasn't worked after 10 years, it will never work.
 

clonetrooper264

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First of all David Lee is two years younger than Boozer
A year and a half...big fing deal

and at the time he had not had major injuries the way Boozer was known to be injury prone coming from his days with the Utah Jazz. Boozer had multiple years of missing 20+ games with injuries BEFORE the Paxson signed him, meanwhile David Lee didn't have a major injury until AFTER he joined GSW. So in hindsight Boozer has been healthier but not at the time Paxson was making his choice.
Ok fine you win. Boozer has an obvious injury history. That ended up being moot in hindsight, but sure, Boozer was an injury prone player.

So in 2010 a 28 year old injury prone Boozer gets 4 year 60 Million ($15M per) and a 26 year old David Lee gets 6 year 80 ($13.M per). You claim the only thing Lee does better is shoot FT's but Boozer doesn't do ANYTHING better than Lee. I always thought David Lee was the better so don't think I'm just bringing up a random player to show that Paxson sucks, I though the Bulls were overpaying for a always injured player, luckily he hasn't been injury prone with the Bulls (knock on wood) but he is even more overpaid than I thought he would be AND he doesn't play well with Derrick Rose as we will see again this year.
So 2 million more makes Boozer overpaid. Ok...cool. You always thought David Lee was better, that's a cool story bro. I guess your opinion makes it fact. As I've said before, the public opinion was that Boozer was better. (check out a debate here http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&p=24239067) Statistically, they were basically the same. And since you want to know what Boozer does better than Lee, Boozer has a better post game, though we don't see as much here as in Utah. His role has changed from the first option to the second option. It's not because he doesn't play well with Rose, it's just that the offense isn't focused around him in the pick and roll like it was with DWill in Utah. I've said this before, he works extremely well with Hinrich in the pick and roll since he's the focal point. Again, per 36 minutes, his stats are basically the same as Lee's, even now.

David Lee is tougher, a better defender, and I like him better on the Pick and Roll versus dumping the ball in to Boozer in the post over and over to see him get the damn ball slapped out his hands....:smh:
Tougher how? Boozer took Lebron slamming into him at full speed and barely budged. He's got like 20 pounds on lee as well. I'm not sure what you're getting at there. If Lee was such a better defender than Boozer, why are their defensive stats the same? Lee's got Andrew Bogut behind him just like Boozer has Joakim behind him. He's also got just as bad a reputation as a defender as Boozer does, so if he's really that much better, it's like saying a snail is faster than a sloth.

And clearly you don't watch enough Bulls basketball because if you did, you'd know we don't give Boozer the ball in the post over and over. Sure, we do sometimes and a fraction of those times he'll get the ball slapped out of his hands, but for every one of those times you probably get to hear at least two of Stacey's spin cycle comments.

Asik was the player Paxson was supposed to keep not Taj Gibson
This is pure opinion. Everyone wanted to keep Taj at the time and even now people still want to keep Taj.

Asik is actually a steal for the Rockets and is worth more than they are paying him. You don't find 7 foot players that can run as well as Omer, then you add in that he can play defense and block shots without fouling out
Funny, I seem to remember everyone saying Omer was overpaid on that contract. He put up good numbers because he was the only big man on that team that could do anything.

then add in that he is top 5 rebounder. Omer Asik and Joakim Noah are a formidable front court defensively and match Thibs system perfectly. Asik has more length than Gibson or Noah so he would defend the Dwight Howard types or the Chris Bosh types. Noah is too small for Howard and too slow for Bosh. Gibson is too small for either. So again Paxson made the wrong decision.
You seem to ignore offensive compatibility entirely with this argument. Omer still lacks a post game (though with McHale coaching him, he's bound to get one) and offensively, that frontcourt would be a mess. As for Joakim being too slow for Bosh, I don't believe that for a second seeing as Joakim can keep up with point guards for short spurts on switches. And Jo is even quicker than Omer, so what then? You also ignore Taj's wingspan which is actually longer than Omer's. I'll trust Gibson on Bosh more than Asik. Omer would have been a lifetime backup behind Jo if he stayed here and yes he would have done great things for us off the bench, but much like Gortat when he left Orlando, you don't see that player's full potential until he gets his own spotlight. Point being, Asik was still a big unknown here. He played limited minutes, and while he was key with his defense, we didn't know exactly how good he was.

He made the wrong decision about Tyrus Thomas vs LaMarcus Aldridge, paying Omer Asik vs Gibson, Carlos Boozer vs David Lee, James Johnson... and the list goes on
I told you already, draft mistakes happen to EVERYONE. No one was upset with drafting James Johnson at the time...it was a solid pick so long as he panned out. Again, you can't chastise picks like Tyrus and James Johnson without also giving credit for drafting Joakim (controversial pick at the time), Taj, Omer, and Butler. Heck, even guys like Kirk and Luol have been key to any kind of success the Bulls have had since 98. 2 bad picks since like 2003...boo freaking hoo. Paying Omer vs Gibson is purely subjective, as is Boozer vs Lee. Just because you adamantly believe those particular decisions are wrong doesn't mean they are.

2003: Kirk Hinrich instead of David West and doesn't resign Jamal Crawford
I see you once again like to ignore needs of the roster when drafting. We NEEDED a PG after Jay Williams went and smashed his motorcycle. We had our "front court of the future" already with Chandler and Curry. And seeing how key Hinrich was between 2003 and 2008, I'd say that was a pretty good pick even if he suffered a sharp decline after 2006. And Crawford was still on the team in 2003. Get your facts straight. And for whatever it's worth, the Bulls didn't feel like Crawford was worth the money he was asking and rather than lose him for nothing, they got more cap space.

2006: Had #2/#16 Picks could have had Aldridge, Brandon Roy (who I wanted), or Rudy Gay instead got Tyrus Thomas and Thabo Sefolosha, he also traded Tyson Chandler for J.R. Smith and P.J. Brown and then immediately traded Smith for a bag of peanuts.
We already know that the whole Aldridge thing was a mistake. It happens. Also, a lot of good Brandon Roy would've done for us right? Actually, in those short few years, we could've had one heck of a run with those guys before he broke down. Rudy Gay would've been a stretch at #2 at the time, but with Luol Deng actually having a good year that year and the need for a big man, easy to see why we didn't go with a SF. I have no idea why Thabo is considered a bad move in your book, he's a good player. Just didn't really fit with the team at the time. JR Smith was (and still is) a headcase back then and I think he was only included because it made the salaries balance. The debate for JR Smith will go on forever. You also seem to forget how ridiculously bad Chandler played that past year. It was painful. Plus Ben Wallace signing made him expendable. Of course, hindsight says that along a great passing PG, Chandler is awesome, but we don't have one of those. What can you do. PJ Brown gave us good production for that year and given that the deal was made for financial flexibility later, I'd say that didn't turn out that bad at all.

2007: Joakim is the right pick, although Marc Gasol has turned into the better player.
Marc Gasol was also a late 2nd round pick. Who knew he was going to turn into the big man version of Manu Ginobili?

At this point Paxson had 5 seasons and he should have been fired or replaced right along with Scott Skiles but Bulls got lucky with #1 pick and Paxson had his second good year.
At this point I will make a completely ridiculous absolute statement and claim it as fact.

2008: Got lucky with #1 pick and made the right decision to take Rose over Beasely and make good moves to bring in Salmons/Miller and the rights to wait for Omer Asik, but he completely over pays Luol Deng (6yr $80M).
I wanted to keep Ben Gordon and replace Luol (I was probably wrong) although Luol is not worth the money he is paid.
Yes he got lucky and perhaps Luol got overpaid, but I'd say Luol has lived up to that contract as well as he could have since then. Recall that everyone and their mom wanted to dump Deng because of his injury history. Ben Gordon remains debatable. Though giving what has happened since, I'd say Pax made the right choice.

2009: GarPax is born and back to sucking with the James Johnson decision but wins with Taj Gibson and cleaned up his Tyrus mistake by getting a future 1st round pick (that probably won't be used until 2016).
James Johnson redeemed by turning into Mirotic and the fact that he got a 1st rounder from a team that is likely to continue sucking into 2016 is a pretty good move imo. Net good I'd say.

2010: Asik arrives after waiting two years, but he fails to sign any superstar players and settles for over paying Boozer instead of signing the cheaper David Lee, they did resign Noah to 5yr $60M which is too much but I can agree with it.
Again, how dare he not forsee the big 3 duping the league. Else he also might've gutted the whole roster like Pat Riley and said "hey I have room for 3 of you AND we'll still have DRose"

And again with the David Lee thing, clearly debatable. OMG THAT 2 MILLION DOLLAR DIFFERENCE IS SO MUCH! BOOZER SO OVERPAID BUT DAVID LEE IS A BARGAIN! Please...they were paid what everyone thought they were worth.

2011: Signed Rip Hamilton instead of Caron Butler (I wanted), or Jamal Crawford. GarPax does get Jimmy Butler and the right to wait 3yrs (so far) on Mirotic by trading Norris Cole
Not sure if failed to sign or if those players just didn't want to come here. Every had their reservations about Crawford being a starter too. Rip Hamilton was probably last on the list between those 3 players and honestly, Rip when healthy made us a much better team. Problem was he was never healthy. Though Caron Butler has never really been the model of perfect health either. Fact remains, we did upgrade over Bogans which is what everyone wanted so Paxson did what was expected of him.

2012: Got nothing for waiting 2 years for Asik instead of matching the 3yr $25M, deal they give Gibson 4yr $38M, they struck gold with Nate Robinson only to fail to resign him, and its too soon to say with Marquis Teague but I thought Draymond Green (GSW) out of Michigan State was a steal, we shall see....
Too early to tell for much of this. Gibson has remained stuck in a backup role while Asik was allowed free reign as a starter...naturally Asik is going to look better. If Asik sticks in Houston alongside Dwight, he most likely will not look good.

2013: Ridiculous decision not to reward Nate Robinson for saving the season last year, I'm not impressed at all with Mike Dunleavy Jr anything more than Kyle Korver 2.0, so hopefully we have the rookie of the year and I just don't know it yet.
Nate was offered what we could give him after signing Dunleavy...the minimum. He took more money and more years in Denver. We can't fault him for that. And really, Nate's role of the team would be what? 3rd string PG? He's not a long term solution, as much excitement as he brought. I can't call that decision ridiculous after a deal was put on the table and rejected.

Ultimately when you look at what they've done, GarPax has been very mediocre with one good year out of every four years. This team does not look like a contender this year because they still lack another scoring threat and the interior size to defend against longer players like Bosh, Roy Hibbert, Dwight Howard, etc...
Guess Joakim can't defend anyone can he? Never mind his length...nope, doesn't matter.

Bring on the season, I hope I am wrong and GarPax get this team to the finals. If not they should be GONE, because if the Paxson plan hasn't worked after 10 years, it will never work.
And who is your ideal replacement? Perhaps yourself since you know how to get things done so much better than GarPax.

Arguably, Paxson has brought this team out of the depths of the NBA into a title contending team and were it not for the big 3 cockblocking everyone in Miami, they might have a championship or two already. We remain a scorer/star away from a title because of Miami's utter dominance over the league, not purely because of what you perceive as ineptitude.
 

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It is absolutely laughable to criticize Paxson for drafting Hinrich.
 

Axl Rose

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i mean i agreed with you at first xplosive but you have went off the deep end and are reaching for stuff to criticize

you could pick apart allot of GM's using hindsight

also one thing Paxson shouldn't be criticized for and thats drafting.....sure Tyrus and JJ were bad picks but they were high potential players at the time....ppl thought Tyrus had a much higher ceiling than Aldridge...they took a risk on potential and it backfired...it happens

i think he did well getting something of value for both of them
 

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Unless it is a clear and unquestioned upgrade, they need to resign Deng.

I would agree, but who's gonna be the upgrade. Obviously Lebron, but no one really knows what he would do. If he was smart he'd sign in chicago, but wwho knows the mans mind. I think granger would be a good signing. He's not as good defensively as Deng, but he's not a sloth either, the guy plays good defense. He would give us more scoring, I wouldn't mind him if Deng goes. That said I really think if Dengs for sure looking to leave, then we shoudl trade him for the best offer we can get. Amnesty Boozer, add whatever the trade of Deng would net, go hard for Lebron, but also push at Granger as a fall back that fits our system. Go into the draft with 2 picks, and depending if the bobcats pick is a high one, take the best guy available. If its a mid round pick, package the two picks, and move up to get a better player. I also hope we finally get Mirotic over here, Mirotic and Granger would add more scoring to a team sorely in need of it. I don't think our defense would take too hard a hit, with a good amount of young players developing, while the good veteran players lead us deep into the playoffs, while hopefully winning a championship along the way. We get Lebron with this team and Rose, we would win titles, I have no doubt.
 

clonetrooper264

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I'll say this about Granger, in theory what he lacks in defense relative to Deng, he'd make up for offensively by being a much better shooter/scorer than Deng. Not the ideal situation, but he'd fill a need offensively and perhaps he'd be a lateral move if his health isn't an issue. He's got an injury history and his FG% isn't great, but he's a legit 3pt threat and can definitely score 20 a game. If he cares, he's also a decent defender. We could do worse.

He is a fake tough guy though so that would be annoying. :lol:
 

Cerebral

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i mean i agreed with you at first xplosive but you have went off the deep end and are reaching for stuff to criticize

you could pick apart allot of GM's using hindsight

also one thing Paxson shouldn't be criticized for and thats drafting.....sure Tyrus and JJ were bad picks but they were high potential players at the time....ppl thought Tyrus had a much higher ceiling than Aldridge...they took a risk on potential and it backfired...it happens

i think he did well getting something of value for both of them

I would criticize Pax for this move because they had, at the time, Chandler who average like 5 points that season. Our front court needed scoring badly and what did they do? Traded for a guy who couldn't score. Made terrible, terrible sense. Especially, considering the guy they originally drafted was Lamarcus Aldridge.
 

Axl Rose

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yeah but it all worked out in the end...if we kept LMA we most likely dont get Rose

so i ask you...Rose or LMA?
 

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I think bulls fan dont understand that Loul does the little things that makes him great

Rebounding
Defense
IRON MAN mentally
IRON MAN HIMSLEF

He need to be more a slasher if wants that big contract from the bulls
 

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