Rumor: Gordon Has $11 Million Promise From Pistons

[dougthonus]

chi_hawks_23 wrote:

I wonder if Rip + pick15 for S&T Ben Gordon would be a possibility.

This would allow Detroit to land gordon and still have 15 mil or so available for Boozer.

Then Chicago would have 3 first rounders, Hinrich, and 25 mil in exprirings to use as trade bait for Bosh or Stoudemire.

Rose
Rip
Deng
Stoudemire
Noah

Not bad.

Why pay Rip 12 million a year and refuse to pay Gordon 9 million a year last season? That'd be horrifically stupid.

 

[dougthonus]

AirP wrote:

Yeah, they really can't outright sign both of them as FAs realistically. They have to have something up their sleeves... basically you'd have to think Dumars has a gameplan and started executing it when he got AI's expiring contract, no way you think AI is going to fit in with Detroit's roster.

Phoenix would love cap space, how about Amare for #15 and a 2010 draft pick finalized after draft day (this makes it legal to do the 2 years consecutively). They could throw in a minor prospect if Phoenix wanted one, but otherwise, save Phoenix the money and keep them out of the luxury tax which saves them about 20 million or so outright in cash.

Then they would still have enough money left to make a run on someone else at the MLE type level.

 

[AirP]

dougthonus wrote:

AirP wrote:

Yeah, they really can't outright sign both of them as FAs realistically. They have to have something up their sleeves... basically you'd have to think Dumars has a gameplan and started executing it when he got AI's expiring contract, no way you think AI is going to fit in with Detroit's roster.

Phoenix would love cap space, how about Amare for #15 and a 2010 draft pick finalized after draft day (this makes it legal to do the 2 years consecutively). They could throw in a minor prospect if Phoenix wanted one, but otherwise, save Phoenix the money and keep them out of the luxury tax which saves them about 20 million or so outright in cash.

Then they would still have enough money left to make a run on someone else at the MLE type level.

Why would Phoenix want cap space from Amare, he's their only key player on their roster that isn't on the backside of his career... that is if you don't count Barbosa who isn't quite a key player for them. Not to mention that they don't have much of a chance to really challenge in the West. They just need to rebuild, Kerr tried to start the change by going in another direction with Porter... it didn't work with that group like he thought it might, it's time to just blow it up and start all over and that means acquiring talent... and I think they can get way more then 2 mid 1st round draft picks for Amare.

 

[dougthonus]

Why would Phoenix want cap space from Amare, he's their only key player on their roster that isn't on the backside of his career... that is if you don't count Barbosa who isn't quite a key player for them. Not to mention that they don't have much of a chance to really challenge in the West. They just need to rebuild, Kerr tried to start the change by going in another direction with Porter... it didn't work with that group like he thought it might, it's time to just blow it up and start all over and that means acquiring talent... and I think they can get way more then 2 mid 1st round draft picks for Amare.

They would take cap space because it would save them $20 million in cash and their own lost half his net worth.

They know Amare isn't going to come back next year, nor do they want him back because the don't want to deal with his attitude.

They've already sold whatever season tickets they're going to sell this year (or the majority of them), and the team as constructed isn't going to elicit much hope either.

They could trade Amare for talent, but the offers for him without the eye injury looming last year weren't that good, so that seems unlikely. They're certainly not going to get more talent for him at a later point than if they trade him this year.

2 draft picks and $20 million in cash seems like it would trump other offers they could get, but it depends how much they value the cash.

 

[chi_hawks_23]

dougthonus wrote:

chi_hawks_23 wrote:

I wonder if Rip + pick15 for S&T Ben Gordon would be a possibility.

This would allow Detroit to land gordon and still have 15 mil or so available for Boozer.

Then Chicago would have 3 first rounders, Hinrich, and 25 mil in exprirings to use as trade bait for Bosh or Stoudemire.

Rose
Rip
Deng
Stoudemire
Noah

Not bad.

Why pay Rip 12 million a year and refuse to pay Gordon 9 million a year last season? That'd be horrifically stupid.

Because its Bulls management. Who knows why they do the sh*t they do. Its clear JR has a personal vendetta again Gordon.

If it came down to letting Gordon go for nothing....or getting Rip Hamilton and a 1st round pick for him....id take the player and the pic. You'd rather let him go for nothing? If resigning Gordon were an option, I would much rather go that route. But I'm assuming its not as of right now and that Gordon may get 11-12 mil per year next season, and maybe, we can get something via a sign and trade. And if you were are trying to land a stud PF via trade, wouldn't you want to collect assets, not let them walk for nothing?

Rip averaged 18+ppg last year. Its not like he has completely fallen of the face of the earth. You can still trade Hinrich for a pick and cap relief. Hell, you might end up with 4 1st round picks if you did both of these deals.

You can then package Deng, 2 firsts, and ty thomas for bosh or stoudemire, and then you have a decent team. If not, you still go into next year with some tremendous depth.

Rose/MLE/Pick
Rip/Salmons/Pick
Deng/Salmons
TT /Tit
Noah /Miller

 

[Shakes]

Kush77 wrote:

But paying Luol Deng was okay?

No, we overpaid Deng even before he sucked this year. But making a mistake and overpaying Luol Deng doesn't make it smart to also overpay Ben Gordon.

 

[houheffna]

No, we overpaid Deng even before he sucked this year. But making a mistake and overpaying Luol Deng doesn't make it smart to also overpay Ben Gordon.

Exactly, the whole idea of "they signed Deng, why not sign Gordon?" argument is pointless. I don't care if he is the best player on the team. That just means the team is not that good, it does not mean that the Bulls should overspend for a player.

 

[Diddy1122]

Kush77 wrote:

Why can't we pay 11 million for the best player over the last 5 years??? Can someone answer that for me?

But paying Luol Deng was okay? what did Luol Deng accomplish to desevere his deal last year. Which I was fine with Deng's deal by the way, I'm just asking the question.

Deng got his contract after a season where his numbers were down from 06/07 and the Bulls won 33 games.

Ben Gordon is coming off a year where his number were better than 07/08 and the team won 41 games and made the playoffs.

Deng gets rewarded but Gordon shouldn't. Like I say on my podcast, the Bulls live in Bizzaro World.

Completely agree, Kush. Though I wasn't opposed to the Deng signing at the time, I still felt it was too much to pay him. But that's the way it is with most players in the league. There are very few undervalued players. Most are overvalued. Kapono getting paid $7mill to shoot 3's? That's nuts. And there's plenty of other bad contracts like that littered all over the National Benjamins Association.

I wouldn't even say the Bulls live in Bizzaro World. It's more like Reinsdork's Realm, a world where reason & rationality have no place.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Shakes wrote:

Kush77 wrote:

But paying Luol Deng was okay?

No, we overpaid Deng even before he sucked this year. But making a mistake and overpaying Luol Deng doesn't make it smart to also overpay Ben Gordon.

From my point of view, Gordon is a lot better than Deng. So if Deng makes 11 million a year and Gordon is better than Deng, why shouldn't Gordon receive at least that amount? If Gordon wants to get paid then by all means pay him what he's worth. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for signing Gordon for 9 million, but that would be a bargain. As for the whole Deng is overpaid thing, sure Deng is overpaid. IMO Deng should be the one getting around 9 million or so per year and Gordon should have Deng's contract. Wouldn't that be fair for their skill levels?

 

[Kush77]

Re:Rumor: Gordon Has $11 Million Promise From Pist

Shakes wrote:

Kush77 wrote:

But paying Luol Deng was okay?

No, we overpaid Deng even before he sucked this year. But making a mistake and overpaying Luol Deng doesn't make it smart to also overpay Ben Gordon.

So what's the alternative? Letting your best scorer, outside shooter and clutch player walk.

But I don't think giving Ben Gordon 11 million a year is overpaying.

 

[TheStig]

Re:Rumor: Gordon Has $11 Million Promise From Pist

How does BG have a promise? Teams aren't allowed to make offers or negotiate yet. I call BS.

 

[SouL EateR]

Re:Rumor: Gordon Has $11 Million Promise From Pist

TheStig wrote:

How does BG have a promise? Teams aren't allowed to make offers or negotiate yet. I call BS.

Who knpows what goes on behind the scenes though,im sure there are plenty of interstening convos going on with teams and fa around the leauge already..

 

[clonetrooper264]

Re:Rumor: Gordon Has $11 Million Promise From Pist

SouL EateR wrote:

TheStig wrote:

How does BG have a promise? Teams aren't allowed to make offers or negotiate yet. I call BS.

Who knpows what goes on behind the scenes though,im sure there are plenty of interstening convos going on with teams and fa around the leauge already..

Either the Pistons are "cheating" by talking with Ben before July 1st or this is a bluff.

 

[SouL EateR]

Re:Rumor: Gordon Has $11 Million Promise From Pist

clonetrooper264 wrote:

SouL EateR wrote:

TheStig wrote:

How does BG have a promise? Teams aren't allowed to make offers or negotiate yet. I call BS.

Who knpows what goes on behind the scenes though,im sure there are plenty of interstening convos going on with teams and fa around the leauge already..

Either the Pistons are "cheating" by talking with Ben before July 1st or this is a bluff.

I think this "cheating" takes place all the time ,teams just try to keep it under raps.

 

[TheStig]

Re:Rumor: Gordon Has $11 Million Promise From Pist

SouL EateR wrote:

clonetrooper264 wrote:

SouL EateR wrote:

TheStig wrote:

How does BG have a promise? Teams aren't allowed to make offers or negotiate yet. I call BS.

Who knpows what goes on behind the scenes though,im sure there are plenty of interstening convos going on with teams and fa around the leauge already..

Either the Pistons are "cheating" by talking with Ben before July 1st or this is a bluff.

I think this "cheating" takes place all the time ,teams just try to keep it under raps.

But there is no benefit to tamper. They are three weeks away from getting to legitimately offer him a deal. That and Dumars doesn't seem like the type to tamper either. I could believe an article that says they will offer a deal but not a specific dollar amount. And if this does happen by some chance( which I don't think he will get that big of a contract) then we only have JR to blame because he had BG accepting "his" deal.

 

[Shakes]

Re:Rumor: Gordon Has $11 Million Promise From Pist

Kush77 wrote:

So what's the alternative? Letting your best scorer, outside shooter and clutch player walk.

Basically yes. Sometimes you have to take the short term pain (losing talent) for long term gain (salary flexibility).

But I don't think giving Ben Gordon 11 million a year is overpaying.

I think for Gordon's talent/production a 5/55 deal isn't unreasonable, but in terms of perception around the league, I don't think he'd be very tradable on such a deal. Hence it's overpaying.

Deng's deal hurts us here too ... the argument of "we paid Deng so now we have to pay Gordon" is exactly the opposite of how I see it. I see it as "we overpaid Deng, we can't afford to overpay Gordon as well". You can probably live with one of them on an untradable contract, but both of them locks you in far more.

I guess if you see Gordon as a better fit next to Rose than I do you might be less concerned with how tradable his contract is too.

 

[Diddy1122]

Re:Rumor: Gordon Has $11 Million Promise From Pist

This is all total bunk. Nobodies promised BG anything. This is all Raymond Brothers doing. He's trying to put a number out there so that the Bulls will try & match or go over it. If it was true, then the Pistons would be in violation of the CBA & would have some hefty penalties coming their way.

 

[Shakes]

dougthonus wrote:

Also I'm not even sure spending 11 million on a SG is that good an idea full stop. I mean other than Kobe the starting SGs on the conference finalists were Delonte West, Dahntay Jones and Courtney Lee. It seems if you're going to skimp anywhere, SG is the position to do it at.

SGs of the winners of titles in the past 20 years:
Michael Jordan (x6)
Kobe Bryant (x4)
Manu Ginobili (x3)
Dwyane Wade
Rip Hamilton
Clyde Drexler
Ray Allen
Vernon Maxwell
Joe Dumars
Mario Ellie

Almost every team who won had an all star SG.

Fair call. I guess to put it another way I'm saying if those teams had Gordon instead of who they had, would they be better than the Lakers? I think the answer for Orlando and Denver is certainly no, for Cleveland it's harder to tell given they had their backcourt play so far below par in the series they lost. Basically give LeBron any player who doesn't play like crap for an entire series and they at least make the finals.

As far as that list goes, the thing I take from it is that if you look at the guys under the modern CBA era (Manu, Hamilton, Wade, Kobe, Allen) the only one who I wouldn't describe as underpaid relative to their talent is Ray Allen, who was on a team that went well over the tax to make it happen. Basically I'd say the list shows that you need underpaid talent as much as you need star talent to win a championship.

 

[Newskoolbulls]

Whoa whoa whoa if that is true no way we pay him that.

 

[cranscape]

Re:Rumor: Gordon Has $11 Million Promise From Pist

Deng's deal hurts us here too ... the argument of "we paid Deng so now we have to pay Gordon" is exactly the opposite of how I see it. I see it as "we overpaid Deng, we can't afford to overpay Gordon as well". You can probably live with one of them on an untradable contract, but both of them locks you in far more.

Or the other way to look at it is that overpaying Deng was a mistake that will cause you to make a second mistake in letting Gordon go. So do you want to make two mistakes in a row or make one mistake, then do the right thing, and then make trades later down the road to fix some of the money problems you've accumulated? We managed to get rid of Noc and his contract. We managed to shed a lot of the Ben Wallace problem by getting someone to take Hughes.

Also, you have to remember that if you get Gordon for a reasonable enough price in a couple of years from now he'd be at around 3/30 which isn't horrible at all if you are trying to trade him, especially to a team that just needs a couple pieces. Kind of like what Miller did for us. You wouldn't want Miller for that price long term, but he will just be with us a couple years for his yearly price. Not so bad, especially with a guy who can bring something to the team if used right. Gordon has been extremely consistent in his career so far. If we wanted to get rid of him in the future we probably can.