Running With The Bulls Thread

[mlewinth]

Hey Kush!

Ok, so you didnt start a thread, so I figured that I would. Great show, as always. I just want to comment on your comparisons on Joakim to Tyson Chandler. Now, you were really focusing on how the media portrayed Tyson, compared to Joakim, but you did mention that Tyson and Joakim's stats were "similar". I was thinking about this recently. Is Joakim Noah, the new Tyson Chandler?? The more and more that I see him, the more and more I see how much better than Tyson Joakim is. When Tyson had his prime season here, he averaged 8 and 10. Tyson had ZERO offensive game away from the rim. The guy could barely dunk. Joakim offensivly, is 5 times the player Tyson ever was. I am saying that, while thinking Joakim is not a great offensive player by any stretch. He is adaquate for a center. Tyson was just that far below sub par. Joakim has a couple little post moves now, something Tyson never has had. I think you can compare the players alot more defensivly than offensivly. I mean, Tyson was known for defense. That was all that he did. Even that though, Joakim is far, far superior. At Tysons peak (his magical 06-07 season in New Orleans), he avg 12.4 rbs a game. The season immdiatly after he did something similar, but other than that has never been close to those numbers. For his career, he is a 9rb a game guy. Now Joakim has only been doing this for 3 weeks. If this continues though, he is avg the same thing. He is also a MUCH better offensive rebounder and he is doing this on a team that doesnt have perimeter shooting. Therefore all of the defenders are much closer to the glass, making it much tougher for Jo to get those offensive boards. One thing TYson always had was good perimeter shooting around him, in Chicago and New Orleans and he still was nowhere near the offensive rebounder Joakim is right now. Joakim Noah is what I believe we always wanted Tyson Chandler to be and that is the only comparsion I can really make between the two.

Your thoughts?

 

[pinkizdead]

at his best tyson is an injured version of joakim. plus he doesn't joakim's lovable personality.

 

[Kush77]

Thanks for the comments Mark.

Noah has been awesome so far and I think he'll keep the rebounding up. It's just good to see him doing so well, especially with it looking like Tyrus just isn't gonna pan out here.

 

[Frank Breakfast Styleham]

Sorry to hear you guys had H1N1. Hope you guys make a full recovery.

 

[Kush77]

Frank Breakfast-Styleham wrote:

Sorry to hear you guys had H1N1. Hope you guys make a full recovery.

We have, we're all healthy and doing well. I was out of it for a few days.

 

[Frank Breakfast Styleham]

Glad to hear that bud. Hope your back heals as well.

Kush77 wrote:

Thanks for the comments Mark.

Noah has been awesome so far and I think he'll keep the rebounding up. It's just good to see him doing so well, especially with it looking like Tyrus just isn't gonna pan out here.

 

[Frank Breakfast Styleham]

Earlier in the show you did acknowledge that there are so few good centers Joakim Noah could make the All-Star team.

Again, I ask the question...

Why wouldn't Wilt dominate today? Maybe not 50 and 28 but at least 40 and 20.

Chris Kaman ain't stopping him.

I absolutely agree with you about Russell though. If Chamberlain was on the Celtics he would be the one with more rings than fingers. If Russell only had one or two other good players like Jordan did I dont think Russell would have had 6.

 

[Kush77]

Frank Breakfast-Styleham wrote:

Earlier in the show you did acknowledge that there are so few good centers Joakim Noah could make the All-Star team.

Again, I ask the question...

Why wouldn't Wilt dominate today? Maybe not 50 and 28 but at least 40 and 20.

Chris Kaman ain't stopping him.

Wilt would be great today, but he ain't scoring 50 per game like he had once said.

If Shaq couldn't average 50 per game, Wilt isn't doing it. Like I said on the show, the year Wilt averaged 50ppg he played 48.5 minutes per game. He averaged more minutes per game than minutes that are in the actual game. He played every minute of every game and overtime. Which there must have been a few for him to average 48.5 min.

If Wilt played today he'd be right up there with the Shaqs and Olojuwons.

 

[Diddy1122]

Haven't had a chance to check out the show (I'll give it a listen later tonight), but I wanted to comment on the Noah comparison. Mark & I talked a lil about this on the last Bullseye, but I think Noah is a much, MUCH better player than Chandler. For 1, he's stronger than Chandler. That's evident by the way he's able to hold his ground in the post this season. 2) As Mark stated, he's an astronomically better offensive rebounder, possibly the best in the game right now. There aren't many rebounds that Jo doesn't atleast get a fingertip on, much like Rodman back in the day. And 3) Jo is all energy, all the time. Chandler, though one of the quicker centers in the league, never seemed to play that way. Jo will make you pay if you leave him room to run. But I think the biggest difference between the 2 is that Jo can make his mark on any game with his energy, rebounding, & defense, something Chandler has rarely ever done.

GOD I LOVE JOAKIM NOAH!!!

 

[Carbon]

Frank Breakfast-Styleham wrote:

Earlier in the show you did acknowledge that there are so few good centers Joakim Noah could make the All-Star team.

Again, I ask the question...

Why wouldn't Wilt dominate today? Maybe not 50 and 28 but at least 40 and 20.

Chris Kaman ain't stopping him.

I don't think you guys realize WHY Wilts starts were so inflated. It's because of the ridiculously fast paced era, teams played at in the 60's/70's.

In '62 (the year Wilt averaged 50/Oscar averaged a triple double), the average team took 107.7 shots per game. By comparison, this year the average team takes 80.2 FGA/G. If we use a regression to estimate turnovers & offensive rebounds, the league pace factor for 1962 was 125.5 possessions/48 minutes, whereas this year it's 91.7. And those are only the league averages. Wilts Warriors lead the league in possessions per game, with 139.5/48 minutes.

Like Kush was saying, if you take virtually any year from Shaqs prime, and make the pace factor adjustment, you're looking at a 50/20 type season. I'm not trying to hate on Wilt, but anyone who thinks he would average more then 25/12 in today's game, is simply out of their minds.

If you use LeBrons stats from last season, these are his numbers (pace factor adjusted) for the '62 season: 43.1 PPG, 13.3 RPG, & 12.0 APG.

You could also make the argument, Wilt played in the perfect era for someone like him, to dominate the game. Virtually everyone who played against him said the same thing, he couldn't score the basketball unless he was within 5 ft of the hoop. And he was SO superior athletically to other players, it was impossible for him to be defended in the low-post.

 

[Kush77]

Carbon wrote:

Frank Breakfast-Styleham wrote:

Earlier in the show you did acknowledge that there are so few good centers Joakim Noah could make the All-Star team.

Again, I ask the question...

Why wouldn't Wilt dominate today? Maybe not 50 and 28 but at least 40 and 20.

Chris Kaman ain't stopping him.

I don't think you guys realize WHY Wilts starts were so inflated. It's because of the ridiculously fast paced era, teams played at in the 60's/70's.

In '62 (the year Wilt averaged 50/Oscar averaged a triple double), the average team took 107.7 shots per game. By comparison, this year the average team takes 80.2 FGA/G. If we use a regression to estimate turnovers & offensive rebounds, the league pace factor for 1962 was 125.5 possessions/48 minutes, whereas this year it's 91.7. And those are only the league averages. Wilts Warriors lead the league in possessions per game, with 139.5/48 minutes.

Like Kush was saying, if you take virtually any year from Shaqs prime, and make the pace factor adjustment, you're looking at a 50/20 type season. I'm not trying to hate on Wilt, but anyone who thinks he would average more then 25/12 in today's game, is simply out of their minds.

If you use LeBrons stats from last season, these are his numbers (pace factor adjusted) for the '62 season: 43.1 PPG, 13.3 RPG, & 12.0 APG.

You could also make the argument, Wilt played in the perfect era for someone like him, to dominate the game. Virtually everyone who played against him said the same thing, he couldn't score the basketball unless he was within 5 ft of the hoop. And he was SO superior athletically to other players, it was impossible for him to be defended in the low-post.

That's a great point. And Wilt also played EVERY minute that season. He averaged 48.5 minutes per games.

If a player tried to do that today he would be ripped apart by the media and fans for being selfish. Was Wilt selfish? There had to be games when his team was up by 20 points in the 4th where he could of sat out. But he played every minute.

I'm just shocked that is never brought up by people. Wilt averaged 48.5 minutes per game that year, and Bill Russell's career shooting percentage is 44%. Two things you never hear when people fondly remember the good old days and try to tell you these players were so much better.

 

[clonetrooper264]

I remember reading somewhere that Wilt hated sitting on the bench. That's why he always played in every game and why he later didn't want to be a coach. He got bored or something. That's not quite selfish, more impatient or something along those lines. But I do agree, he would be a great player in this era, but he would not get anywhere close to averaging 50 points a game.

 

[Hendu0520]

Great show Kush! You brought up another point I can bring up with my Bill Walton conspiracy about his 6th man stats, 7 points lol. I don't think Bill should be in the hall of fame. Have you looked at his stats? If we adjust for the pace factor that someone brought up on this thread, Walton's stats suck even more. My biggest thing is that Walton won the MVP and only played in 58 or 62 games that season, are you kidding me? In Portland he never played even close to 82 games, to me we might as well put Bernard King in the hall of fame if Bill Walton is. But we don't because we all know King didn't sustain his excellence for long, so why don't we say that about Walton? King played way more than he did. I always bring up Kevin Willis to everyone, check out Willis' career stats and games played next to Walton and adjust for the times that they played. Looks like Willis is heading for the hall of fame with King, ha.

The older people I talk to, including my mom (a knowledgable bball fan) they say that when Walton played he was such a great all around player, but I just don't see it, and I have watched a lot of those games from his championship playoff run in '77. Walton has always got by on hearsay and his legend, take him out of the hall.

 

[TheStig]

I can't see Wilt doing anything like. If you look at all the highlights out, Wilt is also significantly taller than anyone guarding him. Wilt had a yao ming size advantage to go with a shaq size advantage in strength. He simply would get that today. He couldn't shot over people so easily or have as big of a strength and speed difference. He really was the perfect storm those years.

On to Noah, I think he finally reached his potential of being a Tyson Chandler with much better intangibles. He can dribble, pass and is mentally stronger. He gives you that double double with good D and efficiency.

 

[houheffna]

The older people I talk to, including my mom (a knowledgable bball fan) they say that when Walton played he was such a great all around player, but I just don't see it, and I have watched a lot of those games from his championship playoff run in '77. Walton has always got by on hearsay and his legend, take him out of the hall.

The Hall is for college and pro careers combined...its the basketball hall of fame not the NBA Hall of Fame.

He was also an MVP and before his injuries he was a fantastic player. You also have to add that he may be the greatest college player ever. He is definitely a Hall of Famer.

 

[Kush77]

I'm taping the next episode of RWTB tomorrow since the Bulls play tonight and I can actually watch the game live and not on DVR.

Hou bring up a good point about it being the "basketball" Hall of Fame and not the NBA. Walton got in, and the Top 50 players of all-time, based on his college career and some of this legend. At the end of the day Bill Walton's career stats are very mediocre for some one who gets as much praise as he does.

But even though it's the basketball hall of fame, guys make it in for the most part on their NBA careers.

It seems that the college career of Bill Walton gets more considerations that others. Do you know what I mean? Danny Manning was a great college player, so was Stacey King, will they ever get into the basketball Hall of Fame. They were great at basketball on the college level. What about Ralph Sampson? If it wasn't for injuries (like Walton) he would have had a great NBA career. Was also a great college player.

I haven't looked it up, but are their any guys in the basketball HOF that are in just on a great college career? Will Christian Laettner ever make the basketball HOF??
An average NBA career but a great college career.

 

[Fred]

Awesome show as usual Kush. One more point on this Wilt argument...if you don't get the Simmons book, at least read the early chapter on Wilt vs. Russell. Wilt never fouled out of a game. For some ridiculous reason, he was extremely proud of it. Apparently, he would basically stop playing defense when he picked up his 4rd or 5th foul. How incredibly selfish is that? Can you imagine how someone would be ridiculed today for that?

Jordan is the greatest of All-Time. Wilt isn't even in the team picture.

 

[Fred]

Kush77 wrote:

I'm taping the next episode of RWTB tomorrow since the Bulls play tonight and I can actually watch the game live and not on DVR.

Hou bring up a good point about it being the "basketball" Hall of Fame and not the NBA. Walton got in, and the Top 50 players of all-time, based on his college career and some of this legend. At the end of the day Bill Walton's career stats are very mediocre for some one who gets as much praise as he does.

But even though it's the basketball hall of fame, guys make it in for the most part on their NBA careers.

It seems that the college career of Bill Walton gets more considerations that others. Do you know what I mean? Danny Manning was a great college player, so was Stacey King, will they ever get into the basketball Hall of Fame. They were great at basketball on the college level. What about Ralph Sampson? If it wasn't for injuries (like Walton) he would have had a great NBA career. Was also a great college player.

I haven't looked it up, but are their any guys in the basketball HOF that are in just on a great college career? Will Christian Laettner ever make the basketball HOF??
An average NBA career but a great college career.

Add Kirk Hinrich to that list.

 

[Fred]

And BTW, it's perfectly fine to admit players just weren't as good in the era in which Wilt and Russell played. Because the fact is, they weren't as good. I just discovered that Bob Cousy never shot above 40% from the field. He has a lifetime field goal percentage of 37.5%. Is there an argument to be made as to why? Were the rims 20 feet up back in the day? As far as I know, they were 10 feet, and the rim dimensions haven't changed. Did they play better defense? Absolutely not.

Bob Cousy would have a hard time making a division I team in 2009. He could however dominate the WNBA.

 

[houheffna]

I haven't looked it up, but are their any guys in the basketball HOF that are in just on a great college career? Will Christian Laettner ever make the basketball HOF??
An average NBA career but a great college career.

He didn't have an average NBA career. His first years when he was healthy were pretty damn good. He was a franchise player at that time. Won a league and Finals MVP. Your average NBA player doesn't accomplish those feats. I have heard people from his old coaches to even Terry Boers talk about how he was highly skilled when he was young and healthy and that he was pretty much untouchable at that time...on both sides of the court. Think of Noah with all of that energy...but twice as tough, a lot smarter, and a lot more skills fundamentally. He was pretty damn good, though not nearly as great as his college career, but neither was Pete Maravich. Bill Walton gets more consideration than others concerning his college career because he was just that dominant. He is head and shoulders above just about everybody else.

His inclusion in the NBA Top 50 is due to the first four years of his career. He is considered the Gale Sayers of NBA centers. No one on the Top 50 got in because of their college career.