Running With The Bulls Thread

[houheffna]

Jordan is the greatest of All-Time. Wilt isn't even in the team picture.

Totally disagree. Wilt's skills would have translated to this era because he was a monster at that time. He was physically a marvel, and human biology has just began to catch up to a guy with his size and athleticism in the last 20 years. He would not have been as dominant, but he would have been just as skilled as a Malone, Robinson, or Olajuwon. He would still be considered one of the all time great centers when his career was finished. He was highly skilled and maybe the best big man ever at transitioning his game with age and fitting certain roles his team needed. I think you underestimate his greatness to a degree.

 

[Hendu0520]

houheffna wrote:

I haven't looked it up, but are their any guys in the basketball HOF that are in just on a great college career? Will Christian Laettner ever make the basketball HOF??
An average NBA career but a great college career.

He didn't have an average NBA career. His first years when he was healthy were pretty damn good. He was a franchise player at that time. Won a league and Finals MVP. Your average NBA player doesn't accomplish those feats. I have heard people from his old coaches to even Terry Boers talk about how he was highly skilled when he was young and healthy and that he was pretty much untouchable at that time...on both sides of the court. Think of Noah with all of that energy...but twice as tough, a lot smarter, and a lot more skills fundamentally. He was pretty damn good, though not nearly as great as his college career, but neither was Pete Maravich. Bill Walton gets more consideration than others concerning his college career because he was just that dominant. He is head and shoulders above just about everybody else.

His inclusion in the NBA Top 50 is due to the first four years of his career. He is considered the Gale Sayers of NBA centers. No one on the Top 50 got in because of their college career.

I understand he was great when he played but he was always injured in the NBA, first 4 years?

Year 1: 35 games Year2: 51games Year3: 65games Championship Year4:58 games MVP

58 games and got the MVP? Would that ever happen now? No way. Not to mention 18.9ppg 13.2rpg isn't that impressive if adjusted for shots/game and pace, not to mention everyone's low shooting percentage. He did average 5apg that year which is impressive for a Center.

Here are Bill Walton's seasons by games played:
35
51
65
58
14
33
55
67
80-'86 Celtics finally played close to an entire season and so they just had to give him an award. 7.6ppg 6.8rpg ha, even Tyrus Thomas can do that.
10-retired

So with those games played I would fully expect to see 30ppg 20rpg 5apg for a guy to play so little and make the HOF.

Shaq used to and still gets destroyed for not playing entire seasons and being injured. There is not a player close to those Games Played per Season that is in the HOF.

And yes Heff I know he made it off his college as well, but that isn't right to me. Then we better ad Adam Morrison, J.J. Redick, and Tyler Hansborough.

Not to beat on Bill but he can't even stay healthy to Broadcast, he retired from Broadcasting because of his bad back!!! He is still on the injured reserve, biggest conspiracy in all of sports is Bill Walton.

Side Note: Did Bill Walton play college basketball when you weren't allowed to dunk? I know Kareem did but did Walton?

 

[houheffna]

Well, I think that what he accomplished over that time is what was looked at. That and the fact that he was a top player in the league when healthy. Like I said, everybody who saw him back then said he was a fantastic player.

Morrison doesn't compare...he never plays. J.J. Redick, Hansborough...they both suck right now. The best they can hope to be are role players...so that argument is not really valid.

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

I haven't looked it up, but are their any guys in the basketball HOF that are in just on a great college career? Will Christian Laettner ever make the basketball HOF??
An average NBA career but a great college career.

He didn't have an average NBA career. His first years when he was healthy were pretty damn good. He was a franchise player at that time. Won a league and Finals MVP. Your average NBA player doesn't accomplish those feats. I have heard people from his old coaches to even Terry Boers talk about how he was highly skilled when he was young and healthy and that he was pretty much untouchable at that time...on both sides of the court. Think of Noah with all of that energy...but twice as tough, a lot smarter, and a lot more skills fundamentally. He was pretty damn good, though not nearly as great as his college career, but neither was Pete Maravich. Bill Walton gets more consideration than others concerning his college career because he was just that dominant. He is head and shoulders above just about everybody else.

His inclusion in the NBA Top 50 is due to the first four years of his career. He is considered the Gale Sayers of NBA centers. No one on the Top 50 got in because of their college career.

My comment about an average career was in regards to Christian Leattner, not Bill Walton. The quote you chose to highlight.

Only Houheffna can take a quote out of context that he highlights lol.

But once again my question isn't answered. Will Christian Leattner make the hall of fame because he was great in college since it's the "basketball" HOF.

I looked it up, there's a college hall of fame. Which I assume Leattner will get into. But why is Bill Walton the only one to get extra credit for college and no one else?????

 

[houheffna]

My comment about an average career was in regards to Christian Leattner, not Bill Walton. The quote you chose to highlight.

Only Houheffna can take a quote out of context that he highlights lol.

But once again my question isn't answered. Will Christian Leattner make the hall of fame because he was great in college since it's the "basketball" HOF.

I looked it up, there's a college hall of fame. Which I assume Leattner will get into. But why is Bill Walton the only one to get extra credit for college and no one else?????

Okay, let me help you find the truth, like I always have to do...

http://www.hoophall.com/

You will find outstanding college players who were not NEARLY as good as Walton but better than Morrison or Laettner. Laettner was very good, Walton was great...Mt. Rushmore of college basketball players.

The examples you used were not that great...Laettner, Morrison, Redick....no one in their right mind compare those people to Walton...who was a much better player than any of them. But he is not the exception...

Okay...class dismissed...

 

[houheffna]

But once again my question isn't answered. Will Christian Leattner make the hall of fame because he was great in college since it's the "basketball" HOF.

Ummmmm let me see...check today's mail......anything from the basketball hall of fame...oh...wow, they didn't send me anything...nope, don't get to vote...sorry...

Can't answer your question because I don't have a vote...have no idea what other folk are thinking concerning Laettner...and don't really care.

 

[jsain360]

Hendu0520 wrote:

Great show Kush! You brought up another point I can bring up with my Bill Walton conspiracy about his 6th man stats, 7 points lol. I don't think Bill should be in the hall of fame. Have you looked at his stats? If we adjust for the pace factor that someone brought up on this thread, Walton's stats suck even more. My biggest thing is that Walton won the MVP and only played in 58 or 62 games that season, are you kidding me? In Portland he never played even close to 82 games, to me we might as well put Bernard King in the hall of fame if Bill Walton is. But we don't because we all know King didn't sustain his excellence for long, so why don't we say that about Walton? King played way more than he did. I always bring up Kevin Willis to everyone, check out Willis' career stats and games played next to Walton and adjust for the times that they played. Looks like Willis is heading for the hall of fame with King, ha.

The older people I talk to, including my mom (a knowledgable bball fan) they say that when Walton played he was such a great all around player, but I just don't see it, and I have watched a lot of those games from his championship playoff run in '77. Walton has always got by on hearsay and his legend, take him out of the hall.

My friend says the same things about Walton, we might as well snatch Joe Namath out the NFL Hall of Fame, he probably has some of the worst numbers for a Hall of Famer in any sport.

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

My comment about an average career was in regards to Christian Leattner, not Bill Walton. The quote you chose to highlight.

Only Houheffna can take a quote out of context that he highlights lol.

But once again my question isn't answered. Will Christian Leattner make the hall of fame because he was great in college since it's the "basketball" HOF.

I looked it up, there's a college hall of fame. Which I assume Leattner will get into. But why is Bill Walton the only one to get extra credit for college and no one else?????

Okay, let me help you find the truth, like I always have to do...

http://www.hoophall.com/

You will find outstanding college players who were not NEARLY as good as Walton but better than Morrison or Laettner. Laettner was very good, Walton was great...Mt. Rushmore of college basketball players.

The examples you used were not that great...Laettner, Morrison, Redick....no one in their right mind compare those people to Walton...who was a much better player than any of them. But he is not the exception...

Okay...class dismissed...

The problem is you keep using Bill Walton as the standard. Well guess what, what Bill Walton, and UCLA did in college WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN IN COLLEGE SPORTS. The era of that stuff is done.

I'm aware of what Bill Walton did at UCLA, you don't need you to explain this to me. I've seen shows on TV and heard about the great UCLA dynasty. I'm aware of it.

I didn't say anything about Morrison or Redick, so don't attribute that to me. Again, twisting my statements.

My example is Christian Laettner. 2 NCAA titles and a Final 4 appearance in all 4 years of his career. So you're saying Leatnner wasn't a great college basketball player? You're out of your mind if you think that.
That's the best a college player can do in this era. So using Bill Walton as the standard is unfair today. It will never happen again. More elite college programs, players leave early etc..

My question is- why is it that Bill Walton is the only one that gets extra credit for college?? Going by that logic Christian Leattner should be inducted to the basketball hall of fame because he had a great college career. Even though you don't seem to think so.

Really Hou? You don't have a vote for the basketball HOF? Way to cop out on answering a question. Because you can't,it would go against your defense of Walton. That his college career is considered when being elected to the HOF. If that's the case than Danny Manning and Christian Leattner should go to the basketball HOF as well.

 

[houheffna]

Oh boy.....

Sorry to attribute arguments to you that you didn't argue...

Here is the easy answer to your question...

No, Laettner may not get in because Laettner was not an all nba, all defensive, Finals MVP and League MVP in his career. Very few players were.

There are NO League MVPs who are not in the hall of fame...none.

I said he was the Gale Sayers of the NBA...Sayers went to the Hall and played only 68 games.

Walton accomplished so much in such a small amount of time...he played along with Kareem and Moses Malone and was on their level when healthy and was better than them defensively according to people who watched all three at the time.

To be a league MVP you had to be and outstanding player. I think Walton fits that description.

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

Oh boy.....

Sorry to attribute arguments to you that you didn't argue...

Here is the easy answer to your question...

No, Laettner may not get in because Laettner was not an all nba, all defensive, Finals MVP and League MVP in his career. Very few players were.

There are NO League MVPs who are not in the hall of fame...none.

I said he was the Gale Sayers of the NBA...Sayers went to the Hall and played only 68 games.

Walton accomplished so much in such a small amount of time...he played along with Kareem and Moses Malone and was on their level when healthy and was better than them defensively according to people who watched all three at the time.

To be a league MVP you had to be and outstanding player. I think Walton fits that description.

So Walton got in based on his 4 years in Portland and the 1977 season. Ok. I would think Walton got in more based on his Portland years than his college years. Even though it's the "basketball" HOF, I would say all the NBA players in there got in based on there NBA performance.

It's funny you mention Gale Sayers because I got into an argument about Sayers and Terrell Davis with my buddy on our college radio show about 6 years ago.

He said that Sayers deserved to be in the Hall. Injuries ruined his career. I said that if Sayers got in then Davis should get in because injuries ruined his career. But he disagreed.

Sayers was great but he never played a playoff game. TD won two Super Bowls, a Super Bowl MVP and had a 2000 yard rushing season.

Should TD be in the Hall? I would vote yes. My friend on the other hand wouldn't vote for Davis to get in.

 

[houheffna]

I was a huge Terrell Davis fan...he should be in the hall...won a league MVP and Super Bowl MVP...3x Pro Bowler...only played 4 full years...very much like Walton...good comparison.

 

[Hendu0520]

houheffna wrote:

I was a huge Terrell Davis fan...he should be in the hall...won a league MVP and Super Bowl MVP...3x Pro Bowler...only played 4 full years...very much like Walton...good comparison.

Ya Hef but the problem is Davis earned his MVP and actually played in those 4 seasons, Bill Walton played one full year (86 Celtics) and played half if not even 1/4 of all other years. To me Walton shouldn't have gotten a league MVP, I guess he earned the Finals MVP but that means he got to the hall on 1 7 game series or one playoff run?

Danny Manning is probably the best example, he was an allstar atleast in the NBA and played way more than Walton did. Ya he didn't get an MVP but if his name was Walton then maybe he would've. Look at Luke does he deserve to be in the NBA, no way he doesn't do anything well except pass, so the biased is also turned to his son as well.

I am not denying Walton was great when he played but he never played, that should exclude him right there.

 

[houheffna]

Ya Hef but the problem is Davis earned his MVP and actually played in those 4 seasons, Bill Walton played one full year (86 Celtics) and played half if not even 1/4 of all other years. To me Walton shouldn't have gotten a league MVP, I guess he earned the Finals MVP but that means he got to the hall on 1 7 game series or one playoff run?

Danny Manning is probably the best example, he was an allstar atleast in the NBA and played way more than Walton did. Ya he didn't get an MVP but if his name was Walton then maybe he would've. Look at Luke does he deserve to be in the NBA, no way he doesn't do anything well except pass, so the biased is also turned to his son as well.

I am not denying Walton was great when he played but he never played, that should exclude him right there.

I disagree. Manning should never be compared to Walton. Manning never led a team to a championship, and he was a franchise player...for the Clippers...nuff said. He should be in the hall of fame based on the 7 years of college and pro basketball in a row that he played in the 70's. Kareem, Malone, Lanier...all those guys say he was great.

Here is an article from Bill Simmons about it...

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/book/091026

Who SHOULD have won that MVP?

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

Ya Hef but the problem is Davis earned his MVP and actually played in those 4 seasons, Bill Walton played one full year (86 Celtics) and played half if not even 1/4 of all other years. To me Walton shouldn't have gotten a league MVP, I guess he earned the Finals MVP but that means he got to the hall on 1 7 game series or one playoff run?

Danny Manning is probably the best example, he was an allstar atleast in the NBA and played way more than Walton did. Ya he didn't get an MVP but if his name was Walton then maybe he would've. Look at Luke does he deserve to be in the NBA, no way he doesn't do anything well except pass, so the biased is also turned to his son as well.

I am not denying Walton was great when he played but he never played, that should exclude him right there.

I disagree. Manning should never be compared to Walton. Manning never led a team to a championship, and he was a franchise player...for the Clippers...nuff said. He should be in the hall of fame based on the 7 years of college and pro basketball in a row that he played in the 70's. Kareem, Malone, Lanier...all those guys say he was great.

Here is an article from Bill Simmons about it...

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/book/091026

Who SHOULD have won that MVP?

When I'm bringing up Leattner and Manning I'm not saying they were better than Walton (college or pro)

My point is, if Walton did indeed got extra credit for college then how comes other guys don't.

Did Walton leave UCLA early? When I looked at his stats there was only 3 years.

 

[houheffna]

Yeah he left early...which back then was a big deal. I believe the voting criteria has changed a bit since back then. But I thought we talked about this already. He was an MVP...that so far is 100% placement in the HOF through the first 65 years or so of the league's existence. Danny Manning was not as good in college. Laettner was not as good in college or in the pros. His school's 88 game winning streak might have a lot to do with that.

Here is the thing...maybe he has set the mark. To play in that few an amount of games and to be in the Hall, you gotta do what he did...no one else has done it...