Smarter people than us talking about Justin Fields

[sevvy]

I'll bump this too. there's guys that play on horrible teams very well and that's how they become free agents and go to better teams. I'm fried, my day is over, I can't cite examples. Alshon Jeffery left a Bears team that couldn't make the playoffs and he was on a Super Bowl winning team... there's my example.

Brandon Marshall was such an awful human being apparently he couldn't singlehandedly elevate any team he played for to even make the playoffs. what a bum.

The problem with this whole argument isn't about whether good players can emerge from bad situations. It's about the fact that you should be putting your players in position to succeed if you want the best return. Especially when you're talking about a QB.

Yeah, a QB can be good despite his shitty situation. But should that be his experience with his first couple of years in the NFL? Of course not.

We all knew 2022 was going to be dicey. But we accept that because of the state the team was left in from the last regime. And with what we think 2023 is going to look like. If very little is done to address the offense in the 2023 offseason, people will lose their fucking shit.

 

[mecha]

The problem with this whole argument isn't about whether good players can emerge from bad situations. It's about the fact that you should be putting your players in position to succeed if you want the best return. Especially when you're talking about a QB.

Yeah, a QB can be good despite his shitty situation. But should that be his experience with his first couple of years in the NFL? Of course not.

We all knew 2022 was going to be dicey. But we accept that because of the state the team was left in from the last regime. And with what we think 2023 is going to look like. If very little is done to address the offense in the 2023 offseason, people will lose their fucking shit.

the team squandered Cutler by not just initially giving him inferior receivers (albeit he had Olsen for a time and Forte) and putting him with 7 different offensive coordinators. I keep trying to hammer home this point that's complete bullshit, and he didn't get all those guys fired, for the snark assholes that think they're funny. Trubisky was a major reach to obtain, parts of that reach could've got him better receivers too. Robinson worked for a time sure, but he's another drama queen like Jeffery was. now it's Fields. by time his rookie deal is about to expire they might get the magic potion right. Poles at least doesn't seem to be a reckless jackoff like Pace, but that could be clouded by the fact the situation this past offseason was that dire. lack of picks from bogus trade scenarios and blowing money on big contracts that aren't producing in efforts to dig back out of the hole the idiot created himself.

Fields isn't Peyton Manning, he's not going to create chicken salad from chicken shit, in my observation. he does have some flashy moves though, and he's at least not running with and fumbling the ball away 2 times a game anymore. I still think he needs more live fire exercise, let him sling it 30 times a game. Lawrence and Jones are getting that many attempts and they're not setting the world afire but they're on a whole other plane from where Fields is now.

I'm starting to become a non-believer.

 

[sevvy]

the team squandered Cutler by not just initially giving him inferior receivers (albeit he had Olsen for a time and Forte) and putting him with 7 different offensive coordinators. I keep trying to hammer home this point that's complete bullshit, and he didn't get all those guys fired, for the snark assholes that think they're funny. Trubisky was a major reach to obtain, parts of that reach could've got him better receivers too. Robinson worked for a time sure, but he's another drama queen like Jeffery was. now it's Fields. by time his rookie deal is about to expire they might get the magic potion right. Poles at least doesn't seem to be a reckless jackoff like Pace, but that could be clouded by the fact the situation this past offseason was that dire. lack of picks from bogus trade scenarios and blowing money on big contracts that aren't producing in efforts to dig back out of the hole the idiot created himself.

Fields isn't Peyton Manning, he's not going to create chicken salad from chicken shit, in my observation. he does have some flashy moves though, and he's at least not running with and fumbling the ball away 2 times a game anymore. I still think he needs more live fire exercise, let him sling it 30 times a game. Lawrence and Jones are getting that many attempts and they're not setting the world afire but they're on a whole other plane from where Fields is now.

I'm starting to become a non-believer.

Too early for me to become a non-believer. I want to see what he's going to look like week 18. Then I want to see what he's going to look like with some weapons next season.

If Poles drafts a QB to replace him between then and now, so be it. But I'm not even close to being done after his 12th start.

 

[Myk]

The problem with this whole argument isn't about whether good players can emerge from bad situations. It's about the fact that you should be putting your players in position to succeed if you want the best return. Especially when you're talking about a QB.

Yeah, a QB can be good despite his shitty situation. But should that be his experience with his first couple of years in the NFL? Of course not.

We all knew 2022 was going to be dicey. But we accept that because of the state the team was left in from the last regime. And with what we think 2023 is going to look like. If very little is done to address the offense in the 2023 offseason, people will lose their fucking shit.

Especially the QB position. You can't hindsight away the few that came to a team like the Bears that won't get offensive weapons before they get a QB because those teams that try as little on offense as the Bears are few. You can't change history and put those that never played up to expectations elsewhere and start them in better situations. Those 4 years wasted are over and done. There's no going back.
Nobody will ever know if the bad QB would've played up to a better ceiling starting in a better position to succeed because it didn't happen. All we can know is those who succeed in good positions were given every opportunity to succeed.

We could look at Trubisky. 2 post seasons in 3 years (not counting Fox). Trubisky may be all he can be but with a better team supporting him the results would've been better. Maybe not Super Bowl better but better.
Cutler definitely looked better in Denver than he did coming here with no protection and no WRs.
There is just no excuse not to have talent on offense, unless the goal is to lose.

 

[Myk]

Been trying to find this and this type of data is just not available without a lot of cross referencing and history knowledge. You can find plenty of bad QBs who became good but not whether they were on bad offenses as the reason they were bad.
Who are all these great QBs that were on bad teams that looked good without protection and WRs? Can't find that either.
I can't even say Flutie because he seems to be a QB that overcame his physical limitations through practice. I don't think the Bears were too shabby on oline or WR when he played and we definitely had a RB. Plus that wasn't with the new rules.
I'd guess Foles was a mediocre QB that played above his ability because of the teams around him not only once but twice.

I'll stick with there is no excuse to not have a good oline and good WRs no matter how good your QB is. You're simply not going to defend your way to 3-0 wins with a bad QB, no protection, low end RBs and no WRs with the modern rules.
Claiming you get a QB and then get the tools years later is absurd. What successful team does it like that?

 

[Montucky]

There is not some hidden component to watching Justin Fields that makes what you're seeing Actually Good. Its just delusion, and unwillingness to write off Justin Fields by the media for reasons that aren't football related.

 

[playthrough2001]

There is not some hidden component to watching Justin Fields that makes what you're seeing Actually Good. Its just delusion, and unwillingness to write off Justin Fields by the media for reasons that aren't football related.

Mobile QBs with physical gifts that started their careers extremely poorly…

Steve Young
John Elway
Josh Allen
Randall Cunningham

I’d slow your roll. None of these guys changed systems in their second year either. Although, Young obviously benefited by going to the Niners in his third year and learning from Walsh and Montana.

Please don’t mention eras either, Dan Marino was drafted the same year as Elway and came out on fire. Some guys take longer to develop or start in better circumstances.

Fields is smart, tough, works hard and has the physical skill. It’s just crazy how quickly some fans want to throw in the towel and label this guy.

Other pretty good QBs that struggled early:

Plunkett
Bradshaw
Brees

Fields might not be the answer but it’s way too early to be calling him a bust.

Fields had his first training camp in a new system. He’s played two fucking games in said system. He certainly doesn’t have a game changing receiver. I mean seriously WTF!

The Bears just split with two of the better teams in the NFC and Justin made the plays to win the first game. He definitely played poorly against GB, but who didn’t outside of the interior o-line and Monty?

 

[Montucky]

Mobile QBs with physical gifts that started their careers extremely poorly…

Steve Young
John Elway
Josh Allen
Randall Cunningham

I’d slow your roll. None of these guys changed systems in their second year either. Although, Young obviously benefited by going to the Niners in his third year and learning from Walsh and Montana.

Please don’t mention eras either, Dan Marino was drafted the same year as Elway and came out on fire. Some guys take longer to develop or start in better circumstances.

Fields is smart, tough, works hard and has the physical skill. It’s just crazy how quickly some fans want to throw in the towel and label this guy.

Other pretty good QBs that struggled early:

Plunkett
Bradshaw
Brees

Fields might not be the answer but it’s way too early to be calling him a bust.

Fields had his first training camp in a new system. He’s played two fucking games in said system. He certainly doesn’t have a game changing receiver. I mean seriously WTF!

The Bears just split with two of the better teams in the NFC and Justin made the plays to win the first game. He definitely played poorly against GB, but who didn’t outside of the interior o-line and Monty?

I get what you're saying and I agree that Fields has the intangibles and makeup to hang around the league a long time, but I think generally speaking these are all exceptions to the rule that guys who play like bad quarterbacks are bad quarterbacks. Right now Justin Fields isn't merely having "mixed" performances or a bad play here and there, he's basically Jonathan Quinn out there. Mike Glennon was better than this.

 

[tgmxd]

I'll watch the videos. I love Bernstein but his stance on Fields has been so shit. Its "be great regardless of circumstances".

Fields might suck but its incredible how many people have already given up. I said it all offseason- after the complete shit-show that was '21, it was essential to build around him this season and they did anything but. It's already begun. Every single game is going to career ending if he's bad. Sucks seeing other NFL QBs get support and play better while Fields gets the GB ball boy and a couple 5th string WRs and day 3 OT. Here you go kid, make it happen.

Mitch could barely scratch 100 yards week 2 of his 3rd season and a ton of people were still on his nuts. Plays like garbage for a whole season and after a couple of back to back decent games vs horrible teams, even Adam Jahns is like "Did Mitch Trubisky turn a corner"?

Agreed. The idea any young QB can just come in and play at that level in the NFL absurd. Young Aaron Rodgers needed a few years even though he had a stacked roster on offense from Day 1 to develop with.

We’ve seen 2 of the most widely regarded QB prospects coming out lately in Luck and Lawrence both struggle year 1 with the trash those teams put around him.

Fields was considered lower than both of them as a prospect, given less to work with offensively than either but somehow the Bears are expecting more.

You can’t expect these guys to play at that level until they’ve had time to develop inside a great environment. Then they can carry a team.

Right now the Bears are on the express train to david carr’ing another young, highly touted QB before he even gets a chance.

 

[Myk]

There is not some hidden component to watching Justin Fields that makes what you're seeing Actually Good. Its just delusion, and unwillingness to write off Justin Fields by the media for reasons that aren't football related.

I don't remember if it was his first preseason game or just his first preseason. He threw into double coverage, it was caught for a TD. Everyone whacked. I didn't like it, it wasn't double coverage it was triple coverage with what I assume was a safety. I said if he doesn't fix that he won't stick because that tunnel vision will equal too many interceptions.

He has been picked off just like that in games multiple times.
This week he doesn't make that throw. It's almost as if he has learned to look left to his blind spot and now realizes by the time the ball gets where the WR will be and that defender to the left will cover a lot of ground in that time. I say he has learned.
Everyone else is dick ripping because he missed an open WR.

There is a lot of delusion going on but I don't think it's from me saying to give him time before getting the pitchforks and torches out.
We know he has ability. How about getting him the tools? Then if he doesn't trust the tools or can't hit the tools or can't stay in the pocket with those tools you can say he's not working AND you will have the tools in place to start the next QB off right from day one.
If that QB doesn't work with all the tools in place after 2 years it would be valid to say he probably won't.
There is simply no QB, that would be able to come to this team and make it a winning team alone. Especially not a rookie.

I would happily write off Fields. In fact I suspect Poles already has. What I'm saying to do is for the next QB. There's no reason to get that QB next year (unless we have the #1 pick) because that will take a pick away from getting him tools.
Get that QB next year and you'll be waiting until his 3rd year before those tools are ready to shine, AGAIN!
Get the tools, see what Fields can do with them. Get that QB in Fields' 4th year. If Fields lights it up you can sign/tag and trade. If he doesn't you can start playing the rookie.

 

[Sittingonacornflake]

It's not the lack of production or video game numbers that concerns me--it's the lack of attempts . I really really hope I'm wrong, but I just can't shake the feeling it's because the staff doesn't trust him to read the field, go through his progressions, throw with anticipation, etc.--the same concerns that reportedly caused QB-needy teams like the Broncos and Panthers to pass on him in the draft.

 

[run and shoot]

Kinda harsh imo, getsy is in his first year as OC and still needs time to develop.

Truth

I think a lot of the criticism of Getsy is fair, though. And it's more like, "Make things easier for your young QB and build success".

Agreed

In addition, the guys we've hired are inexperienced i.e. Eberflus no previous HC experience, Getsy no OC nor play-calling experience, same for Janocko .

So when some ppl point at Fields and say he'd better show progress by the end of the
season, well we have to look at what he has in terms of coaching. Both of u guys bring up valid points.

 

[Myk]

It's not the lack of production or video game numbers that concerns me--it's the lack of attempts . I really really hope I'm wrong, but I just can't shake the feeling it's because the staff doesn't trust him to read the field, go through his progressions, throw with anticipation, etc.--the same concerns that reportedly caused QB-needy teams like the Broncos and Panthers to pass on him in the draft.

That's fair. I would ask if the staff doesn't trust him why are they trying to win the Super Bowl with him instead of letting him play and getting a better pick.
They have virtually no risk if the QB they're going to cut anyway sucks and then the QB they draft shines. W/L this first year with Pace left overs isn't going to cost them their jobs.
I would even say they have more risk to their jobs trying to not score points than letting Fields play and getting all the blame.

 

[Sittingonacornflake]

That's fair. I would ask if the staff doesn't trust him why are they trying to win the Super Bowl with him instead of letting him play and getting a better pick.
They have virtually no risk if the QB they're going to cut anyway sucks and then the QB they draft shines. W/L this first year with Pace left overs isn't going to cost them their jobs.
I would even say they have more risk to their jobs trying to not score points than letting Fields play and getting all the blame.

Yep, totally agree. I'd much rather go 4-13/5-12 (or whatever) and at least see whether Fields might be the guy rather than try to scratch and claw for 6-7 wins through ground-and-pound nonsense that doesn't tell us anything about whether we have a foundational quarterback or not.

That's why I really hope they just turn Fields loose and see what the heck he can do. He had high-attempt games last year, and I'd rather see him go 12 for 28 with 3 INTs than pass it 10 times a game.

 

[run and shoot]

Yep, totally agree. I'd much rather go 4-13/5-12 (or whatever) and at least see whether Fields might be the guy rather than try to scratch and claw for 6-7 wins through ground-and-pound nonsense that doesn't tell us anything about whether we have a foundational quarterback or not.

That's why I really hope they just turn Fields loose and see what the heck he can do. He had high-attempt games last year, and I'd rather see him go 12 for 28 with 3 INTs than pass it 10 times a game.

He had high-attempt games last year, and I'd rather see him go 12 for 28 with 3 INTs than pass it 10 times a game.

Honestly? You know and I know some here would storm Halas Hall with torches and pitchforks if that happens.? They'd want JF immediately cut from the team

 

[Sittingonacornflake]

Honestly? You know and I know some here would storm Halas Hall with torches and pitchforks if that happens.? They'd want JF immediately cut from the team

I mean I don't want Fields to put up numbers like that (obviously), but at least then we'd know whether to start watching tape of Bryce Young.

 

[run and shoot]

Honestly? You know and I know some here would storm Halas Hall with torches and pitchforks if that happens.? They'd want JF immediately cut from the team

I mean I don't want Fields to put up numbers like that (obviously), but at least then we'd know whether to start watching tape of Bryce Young.

Ok so in JF's second season ( he's still technically a rookie)....... with a new inexperienced coaching staff and questionable
pass pro, we should look at " Bryce Young tape" end of this season vs giving JF time to develop like the other young Qb's??

Didn't we just go through this with Mitch? We can't keep rinsing and repeating. We need coaches who can develop Qb's.
Yes - No ??

 

[Myk]

Ok so in JF's second season ( he's still technically a rookie)....... with a new inexperienced coaching staff and questionable
pass pro, we should look at " Bryce Young tape" end of this season vs giving JF time to develop like the other young Qb's??

Didn't we just go through this with Mitch? We can't keep rinsing and repeating. We need coaches who can develop Qb's.
Yes - No ??

But we also just went through hobbling Trubisky because the coach(es) didn't trust him. Is that really developing?
And I did say about Grossman they shouldn't be leaving him in there to sink or swim, that was teaching him to sink.
I think there is a middle ground letting the QB play and learn but not letting them go full ham or just hand the ball off.

 

[run and shoot]

Ok so in JF's second season ( he's still technically a rookie)....... with a new inexperienced coaching staff and questionable
pass pro, we should look at " Bryce Young tape" end of this season vs giving JF time to develop like the other young Qb's??

Didn't we just go through this with Mitch? We can't keep rinsing and repeating. We need coaches who can develop Qb's.
Yes - No ??

But we also just went through hobbling Trubisky because the coach(es) didn't trust him. Is that really developing?
And I did say about Grossman they shouldn't be leaving him in there to sink or swim, that was teaching him to sink.
I think there is a middle ground letting the QB play and learn but not letting them go full ham or just hand the ball off.

Agreed. Finding that "middle ground" is the mark of a good Qb developer.

We've got to get better at vetting the ppl we hire for coaching positions. Especially when it comes to OC's and Qb coaches in terms of Qb development. I mean they need check certain boxes automatically.

And when they don't check all the boxes we're told to "give them a chance"......"lets see what happens"
? ?

 

[modo]

Smart people realize this is his 12th game in the NFL.

If he hasn't won the Superbowl by now he never will