Some blog: Is Rose overrated?

[RC_Skinny22]

Rose is in his second year and is already the 4th best PG in the league. I also do not care much about stats except the important one. (Points, Assists, Steals, Rebounds, Turnovers, Shooting percentage)

So what does that mean Rose is 35 of 67 PG in efficiency? You have to think about how those stats were created and what is behind those stats (especially if you campare players league wide).

For example: A guy who made 1 of 1 freethrows is statisticly ahead of somebody who shoots 9 of 10. Is he still the better player? I´m sure at least 20 of those 34 PG who "are more efficient" than Rose are not playing 30+ minutes like he does.

 

[Shakes]

Hendu0520 wrote:

Shakes why can't you answer Kush's arguments directly?

Dude, what's the point of addressing the individual arguments? Will I win the internet if I can carry out a quote war to the point everyone else gives up because the thread becomes too confusing to read? We can quote back and forth for pages and we wouldn't resolve anything. The lack of a shared premise is the problem. He's using the example of one guy incorrectly using a stat as the basis of his argument that the entire stat is bad. I disagree with the original article and Kush for basically the same reason: they're focusing on one small area and ignoring all other evidence. The article ignores mitigating factors around Rose's stats, Kush ignores the fact that reasonable stats guys know how to use the stats well and instead slams stats based on the article of a douchebag who probably knows nothing about stats other than how to load basketball-reference.com.

I've got no problem with Kush slamming the guy, I have a problem with him also slamming stats. It's like saying because Charles Manson likes potatoes, potatoes will turn you into a murderer (disclaimer: I have no idea whether Manson likes potatoes, it's just an analogy, don't sue me potato farmers!)

I don't really get your problem: for any standard definition of efficient, Maggette is more efficient than James. I'm not even sure how anyone can then extrapolate and say "because he says Maggette is more efficient he's saying he's better". If I meant to say I thought Maggette was better I'd say he's better. I'm on record here saying that LeBron is the best player in the game and probably going to be the best ever. I don't see how that's in any way contradicted by saying a player is slightly better in one aspect of the game over the course of a single season. I doubt there will ever be a player who tops the league in every possible measure every season he plays.

But in case the logic is not clear: both Maggette and LeBron score at well above the league average for efficiency. Therefore even though Maggette is slightly more efficient, LeBron scoring in a higher volume provides more above average efficiency scoring for his team. I don't see what's confusing about that: scoring (both volume or efficiency) doesn't matter in and off itself, it's a combination of the two that helps you score more than the other team. That's really the yardstick, given basketball is a zero sum game and all: do you help your team score more than the other team and by how much?

I'm also a bit confused about your distinction of PPG as being "factual". True shooting percentage is as "factual" as points per game, they're all just ways to look at the raw numbers. You can argue the relative importance of stats, but unless you want to argue the scorers or the maths are wrong, you can't argue the stats themselves are facts. BTW, for anything other than scoring (eg assists, blocks, rebounds) you'd have my agreement that the inconsistency of scorers is a barrier to accurate statistical analysis. But I think scorers tend to get whether the ball went through the hoop correct. That one is a little hard to fudge without people taking notice. :laugh:

 

[Shakes]

Anyway as I've said, I'm not defending this guy, I think Rose isn't overrated now (the guy is 12 months too late with the article). I'm all saying is that when someone comes out with a stupid opinion, people normally call him an idiot. But as soon as they use stats in their opinion, people call the stats bad. I just think instead they should still just say the guy is an idiot, and that doesn't really tell us anything about whether the stats are good or bad.

After all, some very dumb people have always mis-used the work of smart people to try to prove their point. If I use general relativity to try to show Rose sucks, it doesn't make Einstein wrong, it makes me a jerk.

 

[Kush77]

Shakes wrote:

Hendu0520 wrote:

Shakes why can't you answer Kush's arguments directly?

Will I win the internet if I can carry out a quote war

:laugh: :laugh:

I think you win the internet for that comment.

As new ruler of the internet, what will be your first action?

 

[jsain360]

Hendu0520 wrote:

Shakes why can't you answer Kush's arguments directly? Please explain why Magette's TS% is better than Lebron's. And then please explain your jumble about effecient scorer vs better scorer? What are you talking about? Magette is not a more efficient scorer or better scorer than Lebron. Does your stupid stat take into account 4 guys guarding James and no one even runs at Magatte? Or that everyone is gunning for Lebron not Corey?

TS% should only be brought up when comparing 2 players and should be one of the last points made, not one of the first. So after every other stat is put out there you can add in the TS%. +/- should never be used. TS% is barely a good stat.

Any stat that tries to encompass all factors just can't work. There are too many factors you can't make a perfect formula. Even QB rating is worthless. Look at all these guys come up with ratings systems: Hollinger, QB ratings, Power Ratings, they all have flaws and can be minipulated. They are fun, nothing else!

Stats help us prove points, the stat should never be the start of your argument unless a guy is better in almost all stats across the board.

Yes the blogger was way off (he even said that Rose' FG% isn't good for a PG which is way off)and the argument has now changed from DRose being overrated to if TS% matters. Rose is the 4th best PG in the league behind Paul, Williams, Nash. Some could argue Billups but it would be a good argument.

TS% and other formulated stats are way Over used and Overrated!!!!!!

Thank you soooooooooo much, most people I respond to don't even use the actual box score stats like FG% and PPG, too many arguments are based on metrics, metrics have flaw and don't account for situations, nobody in the world can tell me 20ppg on 48% FG is not efficient, 48% shooting is stupendous for a guard.

 

[Kush77]

jsain360 wrote:

Thank you soooooooooo much, most people I respond to don't even use the actual box score stats like FG% and PPG, too many arguments are based on metrics, metrics have flaw and don't account for situations, nobody in the world can tell me 20ppg on 48% FG is not efficient, 48% shooting is stupendous for a guard.

There are so many factors that play into someone's TS that aren't measures. Like when is a guy shooting?

A guy like Allen Iverson, in his Philly days, would always find himself with the ball with the shot clock winding down when you don't always get the ideal shot. What are your options? Get a shot up so that it goes in or you get the offensive rebound? Or do you not take the shot because of your TS. Of course you take the shot. But TS doesn't factor in game situations. Does a guy come through in the 4th quarter as opposed to the 1st quarter? Ben Gordon's rookie year would be a good example with all those double digit 4th quarters he had. I'd say he was pretty big for the Bulls that year. I haven't done the math, nor will I, but I'm sure BGs TS from his rookie year wasn't mind blowing.

There's also little thing like taking the half court shot or desperation three at the end of quarters. Taking the desperation shot when there's only 1 or 2 seconds left on the shot clock and your team is inbounding.

Basically these numbers guys are trying to apply baseball sabermetrics to the NBA and it doesn't work.

Like I said on my last podcast, baseball - while a team sport - has one on one matchups that can be accurately measured. Basketball has to many other factors that, to me, make these fancy pants stats a bit inaccurate.

 

[houheffna]

There are so many factors that play into someone's TS that aren't measures. Like when is a guy shooting?

A guy like Allen Iverson, in his Philly days, would always find himself with the ball with the shot clock winding down when you don't always get the ideal shot. What are your options? Get a shot up so that it goes in or you get the offensive rebound? Or do you not take the shot because of your TS. Of course you take the shot. But TS doesn't factor in game situations. Does a guy come through in the 4th quarter as opposed to the 1st quarter? Ben Gordon's rookie year would be a good example with all those double digit 4th quarters he had. I'd say he was pretty big for the Bulls that year. I haven't done the math, nor will I, but I'm sure BGs TS from his rookie year wasn't mind blowing.

There's also little thing like taking the half court shot or desperation three at the end of quarters. Taking the desperation shot when there's only 1 or 2 seconds left on the shot clock and your team is inbounding.

Basically these numbers guys are trying to apply baseball sabermetrics to the NBA and it doesn't work.

Like I said on my last podcast, baseball - while a team sport - has one on one matchups that can be accurately measured. Basketball has to many other factors that, to me, make these fancy pants stats a bit inaccurate.

Where was all of this at when I was having arguments with people who used sabermetrics to come to dumbass conclusions like..."Ben Gordon was a better scorer than Carmelo Anthony last year...". It would have been nice to have had help, fortunately, the premise of using or misusing stats in this fashion was such absurdity that Fred mentioned it on his show and said that there was no argument, before that, no one stood up...no one! Bunch of cowards! LOL...

Not you Kush, you're an ordained minister, but some of you others...shame on you....

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

There are so many factors that play into someone's TS that aren't measures. Like when is a guy shooting?

A guy like Allen Iverson, in his Philly days, would always find himself with the ball with the shot clock winding down when you don't always get the ideal shot. What are your options? Get a shot up so that it goes in or you get the offensive rebound? Or do you not take the shot because of your TS. Of course you take the shot. But TS doesn't factor in game situations. Does a guy come through in the 4th quarter as opposed to the 1st quarter? Ben Gordon's rookie year would be a good example with all those double digit 4th quarters he had. I'd say he was pretty big for the Bulls that year. I haven't done the math, nor will I, but I'm sure BGs TS from his rookie year wasn't mind blowing.

There's also little thing like taking the half court shot or desperation three at the end of quarters. Taking the desperation shot when there's only 1 or 2 seconds left on the shot clock and your team is inbounding.

Basically these numbers guys are trying to apply baseball sabermetrics to the NBA and it doesn't work.

Like I said on my last podcast, baseball - while a team sport - has one on one matchups that can be accurately measured. Basketball has to many other factors that, to me, make these fancy pants stats a bit inaccurate.

Where was all of this at when I was having arguments with people who used sabermetrics to come to dumbass conclusions like..."Ben Gordon was a better scorer than Carmelo Anthony last year...". It would have been nice to have had help, fortunately, the premise of using or misusing stats in this fashion was such absurdity that Fred mentioned it on his show and said that there was no argument, before that, no one stood up...no one! Bunch of cowards! LOL...

Not you Kush, you're an ordained minister, but some of you others...shame on you....

Ha ha ha ha.

I almost mentioned that argument on my podcast last week. I remember you and Po3 going at it for a while. I don't think I posted, but I don't agree that Gordon is a better scorer than Carmelo Anthony. That's not up for debate. But I didn't want to get into the spirited discussion you and Po3 were having.

 

[Bullsman24]

man Po3 uses TS% ALL the time.

btw i really want to see this list of the 34 or wat ev point guards that are ahead of rose.