Sox Sign Gordon Beckham: DFA Viciedo

brett05

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abreu should match production. they adjusted to him than he struggled and adjusted back. he is proven.

What we have to see is garcia for a full season. the linup has a lot of OBP.

look at the other lineups in the division as well. I will take my chances with:
eaton
cabrera
laroche
abreu
garcia
aram
gillespie
beckham
flowers

than a rotation with sale,shark,and Q

jennings,duke,roberston>>>> belisario and the other idiots

if this were 2012 id favor the tigers but its not. verlander is not the same threat, scherzer is gone, miggy is ouchy and has some miles on him along with vmart.

kc lost a lot this offseason, i cant see them being like last year.


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I have confidence in Abreu but to say he could slump is definitely possibly. But given the international hitters with pro expereince at his age that play it seems a lot higher that he will suceed than flop IMO.
Eaton is in his second full season, third for service time. I think he'll be ok, but it is a minor concern that he could regress. That goes with Gillaspie too I would say.

Cabrera, Laroche, Aram should be fine. I expect career norms.

Garcia is a spec still. A MLB spec, not a Minor League one. He's absolutely a wild card but very encouraged with his commitment after the injury to get back and play well.

Beckham should give GG type D, Flowers will win half a dozne games with his bat and is basically a non issue behind the plate. I think he actually compares a lot to Montero at this point.

The first three are filthy. Robertson could absolutely flop and so yes, I am a kool-aid drinker there. Jenings and Duke make our bullpen from a worst three to a mid pack pen for me.
 

DewsSox79

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I have confidence in Abreu but to say he could slump is definitely possibly. But given the international hitters with pro expereince at his age that play it seems a lot higher that he will suceed than flop IMO.
Eaton is in his second full season, third for service time. I think he'll be ok, but it is a minor concern that he could regress. That goes with Gillaspie too I would say.

Cabrera, Laroche, Aram should be fine. I expect career norms.

Garcia is a spec still. A MLB spec, not a Minor League one. He's absolutely a wild card but very encouraged with his commitment after the injury to get back and play well.

Beckham should give GG type D, Flowers will win half a dozne games with his bat and is basically a non issue behind the plate. I think he actually compares a lot to Montero at this point.

The first three are filthy. Robertson could absolutely flop and so yes, I am a kool-aid drinker there. Jenings and Duke make our bullpen from a worst three to a mid pack pen for me.

there are still interesting BP arms out there: axford, krod, beachy


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The Hawk

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No it's not. Come on down from the self righteous horse for a bit will ya?

Nope. I'm not a bit self righteous. I am just correct about Cub fans calling any other fan a "meatball". To me, Cub fans are the dumbest fans in any sport. Laying out good money to support a franchise that is at least one of the top three worse of all time. They can be good people but as far as being smart baseball fans, those two things are mutually exclusive. If my team stinks, I'll say it stinks. That is just honesty and being reasonable. And if my team maintains that "stinkability" for a fairly long period of time, then I won't support that team at all. A significant percentage of Cub "fans" that I know or have encountered over the years, are not really knowledgeable about the game itself or even whether this team wins or loses. They are kind of a Bohemian Yuppie entity more into the so-called WRIGLEY EXPERIENCE, the vines on the wall, the "cuteness" of their lovable little cub logo, etc. than actually knowing anything about the playing of the game itself.

So....... That is not self-righteous in my book. Just a factual rendering of the obvious.
 

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The breakdown is for ALL team fan bases prior to the season. Since your reading comprehension doesn't appear to be too good, that classifies you as part meatball/part negative Nelly.

What you fail to comprehend is that Cub fans should not be part of the "meatballness" category. Cub fans are on their own in terms of identification. Sort of an alien life form that kind of looks like one thing but is really another.
 

brett05

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Nope. I'm not a bit self righteous. I am just correct about Cub fans calling any other fan a "meatball". To me, Cub fans are the dumbest fans in any sport. Laying out good money to support a franchise that is at least one of the top three worse of all time. They can be good people but as far as being smart baseball fans, those two things are mutually exclusive. If my team stinks, I'll say it stinks. That is just honesty and being reasonable. And if my team maintains that "stinkability" for a fairly long period of time, then I won't support that team at all. A significant percentage of Cub "fans" that I know or have encountered over the years, are not really knowledgeable about the game itself or even whether this team wins or loses. They are kind of a Bohemian Yuppie entity more into the so-called WRIGLEY EXPERIENCE, the vines on the wall, the "cuteness" of their lovable little cub logo, etc. than actually knowing anything about the playing of the game itself.

So....... That is not self-righteous in my book. Just a factual rendering of the obvious.
And how were the Sox different prior to 2005???? You are a hypocrit and self-righteous. I complain about Cub Fans not calling out their own. That ain't happening here. Seriously you on different meds or something as this ain't like you.
 

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playing GG defense and winning a GG are different matters. While you are so infatuated with Men's hair, read a dictionary too ok? You're really flying off the handle here on this one.

Sure I am. I am having fun:) But I also am correct about Beckham not being anything approaching "golden Glove" defense. I am not a stat geek but I do understand the different statistical rating things put out there. But a good summary of exactly what I think about Beckham is the following:



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Gordon Beckham and Defense: Who to Believe?
By Kevin Kaufmann, June 7, 2014 at 11:43 am
Gordon Beckham and Defense: Who to Believe?

I don't think of myself as a particularly strong sabermetric guy, but I also don't write off numbers simply because I'm not familiar with them or I don't quite understand them. Similarly, I wouldn't say I'm a devotee to traditional notions about baseball either. Too often that line of thinking relies on outdated and often wrong methods of analysis. The traditionalist also tend to devolve down to the "You never played" or "You haven't covered" the game line of reasoning which is just worthless. Of course the number guys also can come from a very high, albeit different, high horse, the "we figured out these numbers and you can't question math" horse. They get really bitchy when you say their explanations are lacking and usually dismiss me by calling me stupid or some such thing.

Which leads us to Gordon Beckham, specifically his defensive skills. Thankfully we don't need to discuss his batting skills much anymore. Anyway, the radio and TV guys, in-studio guys and other gabbers and writers all comment that Beckham is a superior fielder, a should be gold glover. I really got thinking about this after Chuck Garfien tweeted "Gordon Beckham = Gold Glover." Thinking led to writing and here we are. Is Gordon Beckham a good, nee, great fielder?

Comparing Beckham to the Gold Glove winners in the years he has been a second baseman, the answer to the great fielder question is no. Since Gold Glove is a bit of an older, traditional award (not to mention biased toward better offensive players) I just compared Beckham's counting/traditional stats to the winner in each year.

2010

Beckham PO: 245 A: 375 DP: 100 E: 12 Fielding %: .981 (games at second 126)

Robinson Cano PO: 341 A: 432 DP: 114 E: 3 Fielding %: .996 (games 158)

2011

Beckham PO 272 A: 443 DP: 84 E: 8 Fielding %: .989

Pedroia: PO 290 A: 425 DP 81 E: 7 Fielding %: .990

2012

Beckham: PO: 280 A: 411 DP: 110 E: 7 Fielding %: .990

Cano: PO: 285 A: 435 DP: 92 E: 6 Fielding %: .992

2013

Beckham PO: 212 A: 255 DP: 69 E: 12 Fielding %: .975

Pedroia: PO: 254 A: 429 DP: 102 E: 5 Fielding %: .993

Looking at these numbers, Beckham is pretty comparable in 2011 and 2012 but not so much in 2010 or 2013. Interestingly he played his fewest games in 2010 and 2013, yet had his highest totals in errors which adversely affected his fielding percentage. Having said that, I don't think, at least in relation to the winners of each respective year, that one could say Beckham was slighted by not winning the award. In no season that he has been at second base has Beckham been better than the recipient of the Gold Glove. It's been close for sure, but no injustice.

Other statistics tell a different story. The first is the Fielding Bible Awards, voted on annually by a bunch of Bill James's buddies. Before you go all nerdaphobic, well sure some of the guys are saberheads (Bill James, Brian Kenny, Dave Cameron), but not all of them. The panel also consists of folks like Doug Glanville and Peter Gammons. In 2010, Beckham didn't receive any votes from the panel and had his lowest runs saved, -4. In 2011 Beckham was ranked 9th for the Fielding Bible and 10th in runs saved; 2012, Beckham missed the top 10 in MLB by one vote. He also didn't crack the top 10 in runs saved. In 2013, Beckham only received 5 votes for the Fielding Bible Award, putting him well behind the leaders. As far as runs saved, he scored his second lowest total -3. So with the a second body of evidence, (and we could dig deeper into the Bill James Handbook, but I won't) the results a about the same, if not a little bleaker for Beckham. If I had to place a value on Beckham from what the Fielding Bible folks say, it would be he's ok. Not an elite and is capable of actually hurting the team, albeit only slightly with his fielding.

The last place to look is in the more other metrics. According to Baseball-Reference and Baseball Info Solutions, Beckham's career Total Runs Above Average is -3. His best year was 2011 when he posted a 4, Pedroia that year had a 9. In his other years at second base he either posted a 0 or a negative number.

The other measure from Saberland is UZR (Ultimate Zone Rating) from Fangraphs, who also use Baseball Info Solutions data. I found this from the glossary very helpful. My research-oriented brain wants to understand more, but I'm not ready for that rabbit hole just yet. If you look at that definition, UZR isn't particularly difficult to understand. It is just another counting stat, just a really big one. It also involves averages, but I'm pretty sure that is sixth grade math, so I'm good. When we start talking linear weights and such my math phobia starts to kick in, damn Sister Mary Monica and her algebra overhead transparencies.

Back to Gordon: According to the glossary entry, UZR breaks down like this: Gold Glover: 15+, Great: +10, Above Average: +5, Average: 0, Below Average: -5, Poor: -10, Awful: -15. Beckham finds himself slightly above average for his career with a 3.7 UZR and a .7 for UZR/150. For a little context, Beckham's best defensive year 2011 he had a 2.8 UZR and 2.7 UZR/150. The Gold Glove winner that year Dustin Pedroia? 18.1 UZR 19.6 UZR/150.

So, where does that leave us? Does Chuck Garfien's tweet, "Gordon Beckham = Gold Glove" ring true? Not really. Beckham is an average second basemen, has some years better than others, which is the definition of average. I think it allows for a certain amount of subjectivity which I think is inherent in defensive assessment. In better years, Beckham has been recognized with some votes for the Fielding Bible Awards and conversely not so much when he's been below average. Beckham isn't a liability, but he isn't the rock that some people portray him as either. His defensive play isn't enough to keep Micah Johnson from taking his place and he hasn't earned a gold glove.

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Filed under: 2014, 2014 White Sox, Baseball, Chicago, Chuck Garfien, Gordon Beckham, White Sox

Tags: Baseball, Bill James, Chicago, Chuck Garfien, Dustin Pedroia, Fangraphs, Gordon Beckham, Robinson Cano, White Sox
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What you fail to comprehend is that Cub fans should not be part of the "meatballness" category. Cub fans are on their own in terms of identification. Sort of an alien life form that kind of looks like one thing but is really another.
Having a conversation with you is like a Martian talking to a fungo.
 

Parade_Rain

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Nope. I'm not a bit self righteous. I am just correct about Cub fans calling any other fan a "meatball". To me, Cub fans are the dumbest fans in any sport. Laying out good money to support a franchise that is at least one of the top three worse of all time. They can be good people but as far as being smart baseball fans, those two things are mutually exclusive. If my team stinks, I'll say it stinks. That is just honesty and being reasonable. And if my team maintains that "stinkability" for a fairly long period of time, then I won't support that team at all. A significant percentage of Cub "fans" that I know or have encountered over the years, are not really knowledgeable about the game itself or even whether this team wins or loses. They are kind of a Bohemian Yuppie entity more into the so-called WRIGLEY EXPERIENCE, the vines on the wall, the "cuteness" of their lovable little cub logo, etc. than actually knowing anything about the playing of the game itself.

So....... That is not self-righteous in my book. Just a factual rendering of the obvious.
Oh, pray tell. How much money have I spent on the Cubs, Omnipotent One? You may want to check your BS at the door, amigo. I have been vocally displeased with the state of the Cubs.
 
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The Hawk

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playing GG defense and winning a GG are different matters. While you are so infatuated with Men's hair, read a dictionary too ok? You're really flying off the handle here on this one.

"Read a dictionary, too, okay"? Really? He hadn't come close to winning a golden glove, Brett, and to call someone a golden glove caliber player, implies that he is very very very good. He is not. This kind of peeves me (I like the word peeve BTW) when people throw out stuff like this when they aren't close to the truth. I'm not trying to be a smart ass but we tend to over-inflate the abilities our own team's player don't we(I sure do it and some will say Viciedo is a perfect example of my doing it).

Stacked up against truly good let alone great infielders, Beckham isn't close. He just isn't, Brett. He doesn't have great range, especially to his right where it really is needed most of the time because he doesn't have another infielder to help him going to his right that he does to his left(1st baseman).
 

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playing GG defense and winning a GG are different matters. While you are so infatuated with Men's hair, read a dictionary too ok? You're really flying off the handle here on this one.

I am infatuated with Beckham's hair because it looks like someone took a cattle prod to Gene Autry's horse's behind and someone else took a picture. Did he get grooming tips from Jim Carey?
 

The Hawk

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Before the season starts most fans are meatballs. It doesn't matter what team it is.

I count myself in the minority, then. I like meatballs in a nice soft bun with excellent cheese and sauce smothering it.
 

The Hawk

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Where does the line start for the NEGATIVE NELLIES? First I saw that term, I thought someone didn't like Nellie Fox!
 

The Hawk

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OK. Let's break this down properly. 70% meatballs. 15% meatballs who think they are fair and balanced. 10% are so negative about their own team that they are probably negative Nellies in all facets of life. That leaves 5%. That 5% should think that the Sox can compete with KC and one other team that isn't Detroit. The only suspicion should be regarding the lineup and I am sure Dews will come along soon and tell me the Sox have plenty of veteran bats and the rookie will have an even better sophomore season.

I've just got to start writing this stuff down!
 

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Do you really think most of it's fans think the Sox will win the division? I'm not talking the meatball ones, the other ones.

Seriously guys, you should take this act on the road.
 

The Hawk

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Before the season starts most fans are meatballs. It doesn't matter what team it is.

I AM NOT A MEATBALL. I HAVE NEVER BEEN A MEATBALL. I AM A MAN --- (QUOTE THE CREATURE ON THE TABLE!)
 

The Hawk

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The Hawk,

It is true. He's 26 March 10th and his numbers are very similar.

Gordon .245/.307/.375/.681 bWAR 6.1 2011/2012 2nd and third highest fielding percentages in the history of the White Sox at 2b
Dayan .254/.298/.424/.722 bWAR 0.7 Massive Defensive liability, numbers in decline for three straight years (see OPS) and not a big enough bat for DH.

Sorry, you just are letting your heart trump your brain here.



My brain just called in:

Per 162 game season --- average over carreer:


Beckham Viciedo

R 71 67

H 138 143

BA .243 .254

OBP .307 .298

2B 32 24

3B 1 2

HR 13 22

RBI 60 71

SLG .375 ,425


Bottom lign : Viciedo blows Gordo away offensively.
 

DewsSox79

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My brain just called in:

Per 162 game season --- average over carreer:


Beckham Viciedo

R 71 67

H 138 143

BA .243 .254

OBP .307 .298

2B 32 24

3B 1 2

HR 13 22

RBI 60 71

SLG .375 ,425


Bottom lign : Viciedo blows Gordo away offensively.

and all viciedo can do is DH


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I have confidence in Abreu but to say he could slump is definitely possibly. But given the international hitters with pro expereince at his age that play it seems a lot higher that he will suceed than flop IMO.
Eaton is in his second full season, third for service time. I think he'll be ok, but it is a minor concern that he could regress. That goes with Gillaspie too I would say.

Cabrera, Laroche, Aram should be fine. I expect career norms.

Garcia is a spec still. A MLB spec, not a Minor League one. He's absolutely a wild card but very encouraged with his commitment after the injury to get back and play well.

Beckham should give GG type D, Flowers will win half a dozne games with his bat and is basically a non issue behind the plate. I think he actually compares a lot to Montero at this point.

The first three are filthy. Robertson could absolutely flop and so yes, I am a kool-aid drinker there. Jenings and Duke make our bullpen from a worst three to a mid pack pen for me.

Stop with the Beckham GG nonsense.


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