BillikenBear
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But if we all did that and didn't discuss it, what would the point of these forums be? :shrug:
I just want the damn FACTS! Give me the FACTS!
But if we all did that and didn't discuss it, what would the point of these forums be? :shrug:
I just want the damn FACTS! Give me the FACTS!
JP Hochbaum
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Except that there is reality. There are teams that don't have the players to do so. The Cubs are one of those teams, and buying a team has NEVER won a WS. There is 125 years plus of history in which this never has happened.
Anecdotal evidence, useless.
Except that isn't reality. Teams that go in it for one year and win it, break up the next year. And those are teams that were small market teams who built a farm and then stuck in a few free agents to get that shot and then they rebuild for years afterwards. But they need the farm system first.
JP Hochbaum
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Yeah he defines the cherry picking fallacy. Drafting high is just a small part of building a farm system.
KBisBack!
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Wrong.
You have made this 100% factually incorrect statement before and were corrected by several people.
Repeating something that is wrong doesn't magically make it correct.
You have again stated something that is not true that you can't build a farm system unless you draft high and again you have been corrected.
Deal with it.
Flacco4Prez
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His point is you have to draft well outside just the top 10 to be successful. THe Cardinals have the #1 farm system in baseball and I can't remember the last time they were a bad team.
Same thing goes for other sports. Packers are a big point for this. They have been successful for years not gunning in FA unless the perfect opportunity arises (White, Woodson) and they draft well not only in the 1st round but mid to late rounds as well. Point being if you can only draft well when you have a top pick, then well you really can't draft all that well and your success will not be sustainable.
JP Hochbaum
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Actually I was never proven wrong, I was continuously proven correct. The example brought up was the 2009 Yanks who had Cano, Jeter, Posada, Matsui, PEttite, Chamberlain, Rivera, Hughes, etc....
Thats half the starting lineup, half the rotation all built by the minor leagues.
JP Hochbaum
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LOL, you guys are just proving me correct here! The Cards lost Pujols and several others and didn't miss a beat because of a strong farm system!
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We have been through this, teams have won the World Series built mostly on FA. Yes, the Cubs need a strong form but you are incorrect in your statement.
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You are missing the point by some people. The Cardinals built a strong farm while winning in the big leagues. The Cubs are building a strong farm while purposely tanking seasons. The Cards have never tanked.
Flacco4Prez
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Yeah but they also win at the major league level. They have a strong farm system while maintaing a level of success in STL
KBisBack!
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Really??
What minor league teams did Matsui play for?? What round was he drafted in?
Pettitte was brought back to the Yankees as a Free Agent after several years in Houston.
You were also provided the First Marlins team that won the WS. The Arizona Diamondbacks. The Chicago White Sox and I think one or two more.
Again you can repeat your incorrect facts till the cows come home. It doesn't make them correct.
Move along please and let the adults continue the discussion.
KBisBack!
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He is missing every point.
JP Hochbaum
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The Cubs farm system is still in the farm, the Cards farm system is playing in the MLB.
JP Hochbaum
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The Marlins, outside of Alou and Bonilla were home grown or traded for with home grown guys.
The Diamondbacks traded their entire farm system for Schilling and Gonzalez, known roid users who won them the WS that year.
The White Sox really? They were mostly home grown, trade for Pauly, Garland. Jenks, Crede, Rowand, Beurhle, all were crucial in that series win.
Flacco4Prez
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The point everyone is making isn't that growing the farm isn't important. The point is that you don't have to lose 100 games to continue to grow your farm system. You can be a WS contender and still grow the farm through international spending and good drafting. Just because you have a top 10 pick and a team like the Rays have the 25th pick, doesn't guarantee you the better player
JP Hochbaum
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And our best two farm guys on the team are hitting .240.... We can't sign guys around farm guys that are really still not ready to take it to the WS level.
chibears55
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http://voices.suntimes.com/sports/i...h-strapped-cubs-exploit-international-market/
when the owner reduces payroll and you have to unload vets to get payroll down and your left with signing guys who will accept short term deals, well your going to lose a lot of games...
epstein, hoyer, mcleod, and wilken have done a pretty good job at bringing in a good mix of young talent to improve the system along with some of the talent that was there the last 2 yrs..
everyone knows you win by doing both drafting well and adding impact FAs where needed, its just a matter of when the ricketts will up payroll and allow to spend on impact FAs.. until then they have at least improved their system tremendously and they should start doing both when they get going.
when the owner reduces payroll and you have to unload vets to get payroll down and your left with signing guys who will accept short term deals, well your going to lose a lot of games...
epstein, hoyer, mcleod, and wilken have done a pretty good job at bringing in a good mix of young talent to improve the system along with some of the talent that was there the last 2 yrs..
everyone knows you win by doing both drafting well and adding impact FAs where needed, its just a matter of when the ricketts will up payroll and allow to spend on impact FAs.. until then they have at least improved their system tremendously and they should start doing both when they get going.
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I was about to post that. Here is the article.
Inside the Cubs, None - August 13, 2013 10:57 pm
Epstein: Cash-strapped Cubs “exploit” international market
When ownership doesn’t give you the money to compete for the top pro Asian free agents, and the collective bargaining agreement doesn’t give you the freedom to overspend deep in the draft anymore, what can a team like the Cubs do to stockpile talent quickly?
Throw money at as many touted 16-, 17- and 18-year olds as you can find in Latin America and Taiwan, of course.
“With respect to that,” team president Theo Epstein said of the Cubs’ aggressive spending on international amateurs this summer, “a million here, a million there, that’s what we can afford.
“We’re not in position to throw around hundreds of millions of dollars in free agency. But if we can do it in that market, we might as well try to monopolize it as best we can.”
Left unsaid is the debt-burdened, mid-market reality Epstein’s front office faced when it took over a Ricketts-owned baseball team that looked from the outside like a big-market club.
Attempts to win a posting bid for Japanese free agent Yu Darvish were dwarfed by the Texas Rangers two winters ago. A posting bid for Korean free agent Hyun-jin Ryu was obliterated by the Los Angeles Dodgers last winter.
But international free agents?
Explaining a strategy reported more than a month ago by the Sun-Times, Epstein said the Cubs planned to compete hard for every coveted player in this class, due to the lack of severe penalties for overspending on international free agents this year as well as the Cubs’ high regard for the elite guys in this year’s class, especially compared to next year.
Allotted about $4.5 million to spend, the Cubs added international slots worth nearly $1 million more in three early-July trades, but have shot past the $8 million mark already in signing players such as Dominican outfielder Eloy Jimenez ($2.8 million), Venezuelan shortstop Gleyber Torres ($1.7 million) and Taiwanese pitcher Jen-Ho Tseng ($1.625 million).
“We had a feeling there wasn’t going to be an international draft next year, which also contributes to the strategy, because otherwise we would have lost a first-round pick,” Epstein said. “All in all, we felt there was a little bit of a loophole we could run through and exploit. So the chance to sign two of the top position players in this year’s [class] plus a high ranking pitcher plus a number of other interesting players made a lot of sense.
“When we were trading for international pool slots that wasn’t an attempt to stay under; it was an attempt to save money [on the 100-percent tax on spending overage]. …
“We don’t see it as much of a penalty. We budgeted for it, with respect to the 100 percent tax, and then next year we’re going to end up spreading our money around with pitching instead of going after the large investments. We liked the larger investment types this year. Not saying it’s the right way to go, but for us that strategy made sense.”
The bigger penalty involves a $250,000 limit on any signing next summer – a gamble the Cubs were willing to take based on their early evaluations of next year’s class.
“We can take a different strategy next year, where we really need to replenish some of our organizational pitching depth and can stretch some of the money around with lower-level investments,” Epstein said. “That might match up better with the talent available, at least what it looks like early, in next year’s class.”
KBisBack!
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What about Devon White, Kevin Brown, Alex Fernandez and Al Leiter?
That team was bought.
What about Randy Johnson, Mark Grace, Jay Bell, Steve Finley and Reggie Sanders?
That team was bought.
[/QUOTE]
What about Dye, Pierzynski, Iguchi and Hermansen??
KBisBack!
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And some of us have correctly placed blame also on Ricketts. You continue to ignore that.
Cash strapped Cubs??
That is a joke.
They have brought in quantity, not quality.
The system is marginally improved.
The major league team is drastically worse which makes the organization as a whole, in far worse shape then when they took over.
Wrong.
Everyone doesn't know that or there wouldn't be people arguing everything I say when I point out that silly little BOTH thing the Cubs are not doing.
Wrong.
It is a matter of IF, not when.
They have not improved the system tremendously.
That is nothing but blindly slurping the corporate kool aid and letting others do your thinking for you.