The nuclear option

[czman]

Well according to Lebron, they lack a playmaker lol. I believe the remainder of their rotation consists of Tristan Thompson, Korver, Shumpert, Channing Frye, JR Smith when he's healthy again, and that's about it. It's not hard to imagine that group only taking 32 shots. Lebron is averaging nearly 40 minutes per game this year I think. Outside of the big 3 they don't have much going on.

Though compared the Cavs teams the last couple years, I'm not sure what else has really changed other than Mozgov and Dellavedova. Not like those players would account for more offense on this team. So while Kevin Love's improvement may be in part to the Cavs relying on their big 3, I'd say he's doing better in that role regardless.

I think more shots (especially 3s). He is basically making another 3 a game and that comes close to explaining the difference. I can't see anyone in the East beating them in the playoffs, not without the Raptors or Celtics making a huge move. I don't think the Cavs can beat the Spurs or the Warriors in a 7 game series--injuries can make a huge difference obviously.

I think it is pretty obvious either way that Love is the 3rd best player on that team. He in no way should be considered a guy who can be the best player on championship team. It was not that long ago that some people thought of him as a top 3 or 5 player in the league. No I bet most people would have him outside the 10 and some outside the top 15.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

Well according to Lebron, they lack a playmaker lol. I believe the remainder of their rotation consists of Tristan Thompson, Korver, Shumpert, Channing Frye, JR Smith when he's healthy again, and that's about it. It's not hard to imagine that group only taking 32 shots. Lebron is averaging nearly 40 minutes per game this year I think. Outside of the big 3 they don't have much going on.

Though compared the Cavs teams the last couple years, I'm not sure what else has really changed other than Mozgov and Dellavedova. Not like those players would account for more offense on this team. So while Kevin Love's improvement may be in part to the Cavs relying on their big 3, I'd say he's doing better in that role regardless.

They desperately need a backup PG.

 

[clonetrooper264]

They desperately need a backup PG.

Well as Nate Robinson keeps telling them on every form of social media, he's available.

They can have all of our PGs too. Why not?

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

Well as Nate Robinson keeps telling them on every form of social media, he's available.

They can have all of our PGs too. Why not?

MCW or Grant would play like all-stars if we moved them there. Go ahead and take Rondo, though I'm almost positive that is a nonstarter with Lebron.

 

[Crystallas]

I think Rondo was on LeBron's short list of PGs he wanted the Cavs to target. The Bulls would need to buy him out either way. There is no Rondo trade that the Cavs could agree too otherwise because they're a tax team and I'm not sure the TEs would add up anyways.

 

[SilenceS]

Because winning a regular season game is the same as winning a playoff series. Call me when Cousins is the best player on a team that wins a playoffs series.

Do you ride the short bus to trump university? You are basketball Special person.

Jimmy Butler has led his team to playoff victories? He must not be very good then.


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[SilenceS]

James in his 3rd year took Eric Snow, Flip Murray, Larry Hughes, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, and Drew Gooden to the finals.

The Kings last season were 16 games under 500 in Cousins 6th full season with Rudy ***, Rajon Rondo, Darren Collison, Omri Casspi, and Marco Belinelli. That is not terrible supporting cast. There are players there who have proven they can be decent/significant pieces on deep playoff teams.

Lol not a terrible supporting cast. You may want slam your head onto the desk and figure out how stupid that comment was just now. Consensus around the league is Cousins and Davis are the two best big men in the league. You think both of them aren't top players. You sir are Special person and you prove that in almost every post that you hold a grudge on


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[ChettheJet]

Here are the big problems with all these proposed trades to completely revamp the roster.

Other teams aren't going to offer much because they can see the situation the Bulls are in. And most of what people post are really unrealistic.
If Reinsdorf intends to keep Paxson and or Forman they aren't going to gut the roster and admit they did such a lousy job of putting it together
If Reinsdorf knows he is going to fire either Paxson or Forman he's going to tell them not to make any medium moves.

2017-18 is about getting a better roster but once you fire Paxson ans or Forman, who is replacing either? That's job one for Reinsdorf and I doubt anybody here has a guess who he could have in mind.

 

[czman]

Lol not a terrible supporting cast. You may want slam your head onto the desk and figure out how stupid that comment was just now. Consensus around the league is Cousins and Davis are the two best big men in the league. You think both of them aren't top players. You sir are Special person and you prove that in almost every post that you hold a grudge on


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I am not sure how you can state I am holding a grudge when you are the one who keeps bringing up things from years ago. I also don't know why you keep bringing up something I was correct about and you were wrong about. Well I guess it could be because you are basketball Special person. You stated that Davis was going to be the third best player in the league behind James and Durant. I stated that was not going to be the case because the game is moving to favoring smalls and bigs are going to have a smaller impact on the game in the future. We are now in the future and I was exactly right. I really do like when you bring this up. It gives me another opportunity display something I said years ago that some people questions and then came true.

To illustrate the point. Top 30 scorers in the league that are PF/C in order of PPG.
Davis
Cousins
Towns
Lopez
Gasol
Parker
Love

Of those 7 two are on teams in the playoffs now. Love is the 3rd best player on his team. Love also is not really a traditional 4. He is more of a 3 pt shooter now. Gasol may be the only 4/5 who is on a playoff team and the best player on his team. I think Conley might have more impact to the Grizzlies success, but it is debatable.

Here is the list of the top 7 scorers at the PG position in order of PPG.
Westbrook
Thomas
Lillard
Curry
Irving
Wall
Walker

This is just PGs, not SG/SFs. 6 of the 7 are in the playoffs and I think the Trailblazers have a very good change of getting in before all is said and done. Is Kemba Walker better than anyone on the PF/C list? I don't think so. If we gave a ratting number to each player he would not be higher than any of those guys.

The reality is that perimeter players have far more impact on the game now. The game has changed. It is called differently now. The NBA has all but legislated the bigs out of the game. Without series changes to the way the game is played/called we won't see another traditional big man as the best player on a NBA champion.

I don't hold a grudge against you for being exactly right before just about anyone else. I just think you are basketball Special person. Just like i never said that Davis was not a good player or one of the best big men in the game. I just said he won't have as big an impact as a perimeter player. Davis is the best traditional big in the game right now. you know what that gets you.........10 games under 500. Kemba Walker is probably the ~15 best perimeter player in the game, you know what that gets you..........a 500 record and a playoff spot.

The problem that you have, and what proves you are basketball Special person, is that you think the just because a PF/C is really good and a better player than a PG/SG/SF that the big is an option to build around. 10 years ago yes. Ever since 2011 that has not been the case.

 

[czman]

Jimmy Butler has led his team to playoff victories? He must not be very good then.


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????? Butler is a good player. Not the best player on a championship team or even a team that can get to the finals. Butler is a perimeter player so he has better value than a big. I don't see what this has to do with anything I said. All I said was: (from the op)

I know people like Butler a lot and want to build around him. The problem is he’s not good enough to be the best player on a title team. Additionally, he is probably at his absolute peak value right now. His long term health and has to be a question. He plays a very physical game and is undersized for the SF. He is not a great shooter and gets much of his value from FTs, and those come at a price to his body. As he ages and his legs start to go, can he really continue to be affective? I think he could have a steep drop off around 30.

That has nothing to do with him not being a good player. I know you are basketball Special person, are you illiterate too?

 

[Axl Rose]

czman is the remydat of the Bulls section

 

[SilenceS]

czman is the remydat of the Bulls section

Im not sure what I just read, but I know it was terrible.

 

[Naptastic]

Its hard to talk about moving all the young guys, when you cant even get a read on their development. There is no way, Mcdermot, Mirotic, Portis, Zipser, Valentine and Felicio are all busts. They definitely dont inspire any optimism, but that has to reflect on coaching more than the players.
Not even Gar/Pax can go 0/9 on drafting even a role player.(counting bairstow, teague, and snell)

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

I'm going to need a Rami list before I go any further.

 

[Enasic]

Its hard to talk about moving all the young guys, when you cant even get a read on their development. There is no way, Mcdermot, Mirotic, Portis, Zipser, Valentine and Felicio are all busts. They definitely dont inspire any optimism, but that has to reflect on coaching more than the players.
Not even Gar/Pax can go 0/9 on drafting even a role player.(counting bairstow, teague, and snell)

Oh, there's definitely a way. Niko has already proved himself to be a bust. Doug never had a high ceiling to begin with and really, is a 3 PT specialist who can't really shoot right now. The game still seems a little too quick for him. He's a limited player who's probably the 7th-8th best player on a championship team. And the Bulls traded up to get him. Zipser is a 2nd round pick and it's way too early to call him a bust if there is even such a thing for a 2nd rounder. But he's certainly not very good. The jury is still out on Portis and Valentine, but they're both very limited athletically, and were always more of the Garpaxian "high floor, low ceiling" type of players. Felicio is actually an ascending player and looks to be a solid big in the league. Which begs the question, if Felicio is improving and ascending, why aren't the rest of the guys? Is it because of the coaching staff or because the players aren't very good? I think it's a bit of both, but the coach can't go out and play the game for you. If they're not developing, chances are it's because they're not very good basketball players.

 

[Raskolnikov]

Valentine is a goon point guard with bad shot selection and pre-injured knees.

In order to double down on this move, the Bulls had to trade for MCW to have another goon point guard that is much worse at offense, but good enough to block Valentine ever finding a groove with team.

That is the type of shit the Bulls do. If we just had one McDermott, Mirotic, or Zipser they would have a definitive role and grow into it, the team would adapt and figure it out what they are. But instead we have 3 of that guy. And Portis. Plus just retain Gibson forever and keep the waters real muddy. Felicio is a nice find, what is his role? How does he fit with those other 6 similar level players?

Thibs was bad at defining roles for completely different reasons. He would restrict his mental flexibility and just play 7 guys 38 minutes. Now we have the opposite, playing a fucking orchestra of rotations every night.

What the ****...I just don't even...past scratching my head at this team and coach.

I don't believe in the nuclear option...I don't believe we should trade Jimmy/Lopez/Portis/Valentine because of the upside and higher or similar trade value they will have later. Nuke everything else if you want. I guess the young guys don't respect Wade because he doesn't practice on his old knees so...ok.

The leadership situation over there is astounding...none of this can happen. lol.

Mirotic/Rondo should be gone tomorrow. Buy out, trade, who cares. You can't keep guys around who are incapable of understanding "team", particularly when its a hard concept for your superstar.

 

[DaRev]

Oh, there's definitely a way. Niko has already proved himself to be a bust. Doug never had a high ceiling to begin with and really, is a 3 PT specialist who can't really shoot right now. The game still seems a little too quick for him. He's a limited player who's probably the 7th-8th best player on a championship team. And the Bulls traded up to get him. Zipser is a 2nd round pick and it's way too early to call him a bust if there is even such a thing for a 2nd rounder. But he's certainly not very good. The jury is still out on Portis and Valentine, but they're both very limited athletically, and were always more of the Garpaxian "high floor, low ceiling" type of players. Felicio is actually an ascending player and looks to be a solid big in the league. Which begs the question, if Felicio is improving and ascending, why aren't the rest of the guys? Is it because of the coaching staff or because the players aren't very good? I think it's a bit of both, but the coach can't go out and play the game for you. If they're not developing, chances are it's because they're not very good basketball players.

I think that partily why the young players are not improving is because none of them fit into Fred's offense. At Iowa State, Hoiberg's offense was built around ball movement and perimeter shooting. Hist teams were successful because they had so many shooting threats that the other team's defense had to pay attention to every player.

Doug was supposed to be a good player for this offense. However, he has had to develop his game so much in the last few years to include an inside/driving game that he hasn't been able to specialize in 3-point shooting.

Valentine and Zipser are supposedly good perimeter shooters, but the lack of ball movement by the team in general results in only contested shots. They aren't players who can create there own shot yet, they need to be set up.

A lot of Felicio's value has come from the second chance opportunities that he has capitalized on due to the awful shooting by the rest of the team. His tip-ins have added a lot of value to the team.

Niko...smh

I think it is too early to tell if the young players are good because I think that they would develop more in the right system. Felicio is developing rapidly because he is good at cleaning up our terrible shooting.

 

[Enasic]

I think that partily why the young players are not improving is because none of them fit into Fred's offense. At Iowa State, Hoiberg's offense was built around ball movement and perimeter shooting. Hist teams were successful because they had so many shooting threats that the other team's defense had to pay attention to every player.

Doug was supposed to be a good player for this offense. However, he has had to develop his game so much in the last few years to include an inside/driving game that he hasn't been able to specialize in 3-point shooting.

Valentine and Zipser are supposedly good perimeter shooters, but the lack of ball movement by the team in general results in only contested shots. They aren't players who can create there own shot yet, they need to be set up.

A lot of Felicio's value has come from the second chance opportunities that he has capitalized on due to the awful shooting by the rest of the team. His tip-ins have added a lot of value to the team.

Niko...smh

I think it is too early to tell if the young players are good because I think that they would develop more in the right system. Felicio is developing rapidly because he is good at cleaning up our terrible shooting.

I think the lack of development is partly contributed to coaching, but only a very small part. Doug's missed a ton of open shots this year. I'm not sure if he's tough enough mentally or gifted enough athletically to be a consistent contributor. His defense is always going to be something other teams exploit, and if he's not scoring efficiently, he's a hindrance to the team. The point is....he's a serviceable, yet inconsistent rotational player. And he'd be the same player on pretty much every team, regardless of coach, IMO.

Felicio does more than just tip ins. Stacey has pointed out numerous times that when you throw it up to him, he can just go and get it. He's great in the pick and roll, and catching the ball in traffic. He has a respectable jump shot from 15 feet. He's a good post defender and brings a lot of energy, and he's a good finisher at the rim. Felicio value isn't based on tip ins because of poor shooting lol..let's be real. Sure, he's adept at tip ins, but let's not pretend like that's the only thing he does or the only place he holds value.

Valentine and Portis are still really unknowns at this point. They haven't had much playing time and they could still turn into solid NBA players. I don't see them ever becoming much more than that though.

 

[DaRev]

I'd disagree with your take on Doug because I think that he would be a very strong shooter if he was able to just focus on that part of his game. However, I understand that it is a weak point because no one really knows, it's just my opinion.

I also didn't want to say that Felicio is only good for his tip-ins. I just think that it is part of his game that is really developing and has been a unique service to the Bulls. I do want him to get more minutes.

 

[Enasic]

I'd disagree with your take on Doug because I think that he would be a very strong shooter if he was able to just focus on that part of his game. However, I understand that it is a weak point because no one really knows, it's just my opinion.

I also didn't want to say that Felicio is only good for his tip-ins. I just think that it is part of his game that is really developing and has been a unique service to the Bulls. I do want him to get more minutes.

Felicio deserves more minutes for sure.

As for Doug, the Bulls had bigger plans for him other than to just be a jump shooter. They traded up to get him. They need and want him to be a more versatile scorer. Unfortunately, Doug hasn't even been a great spot up shooter this season, and he's not someone you can really rely on to consistently create his own offense. He's a better shooter than what he's shown, but he's still only a 3 PT specialist on any other team. Which really, isn't all that impressive for where he was drafted.