This team is missing....

[wklink]

You guys need to realize this offense isn't gonna be feature back offense. Heavy passing to set up some runs is what the theme is, win or lose.

I agree but that doesn't diminish the need for a back that can get more than 3yards per carry. In two games he averaged 2.5 yards per carry or less and he would have matched that today if he handn't gotten some runs in overtime. Teams are stopping him while knowing we are a pass first offense. I thought he might start getting more yardage as Trubisky opens the offense up but that hasn't happened, at least yet.

I think we look for a back in the offseason if he doesn't dramatically improve. His number of carries aren't dramatically less than previous years (something like 15 per game this year, 17 last year) but his production is way down. I know some of it is the scheme but if he can't adjust and be productive in this scheme then maybe he should go someplace else more fitted to his running style.

 

[TL1961]

This is the issue right here. As I have been watching the last few weeks the only time I've really been calling for Howard is when it is short distance. He seems like the odd man out in this offense.

Only Bears fans think he is good in short yardage. He is too slow to the hole.

 

[TL1961]

I agree but that doesn't diminish the need for a back that can get more than 3yards per carry. In two games he averaged 2.5 yards per carry or less and he would have matched that today if he handn't gotten some runs in overtime. Teams are stopping him while knowing we are a pass first offense. I thought he might start getting more yardage as Trubisky opens the offense up but that hasn't happened, at least yet.

I think we look for a back in the offseason if he doesn't dramatically improve. His number of carries aren't dramatically less than previous years (something like 15 per game this year, 17 last year) but his production is way down. I know some of it is the scheme but if he can't adjust and be productive in this scheme then maybe he should go someplace else more fitted to his running style.

His touches are not down in pure quantity because we run far more plays. But as a percentage of the total snaps they are down. (And I am ok with that.)

 

[SugarWalls]

Only Bears fans think he is good in short yardage. He is too slow to the hole.

I agree. The only reason I want to see him get the ball in short distance is because that is what a team should be able to do... run the ball successfully on 3rd and short.

 

[remydat]

Howard was 20th in the NFL last year in yards per carry, and his YPC has dropped this year.

He is not good at the goal line, and I don't say that because of one fumble.

He has been notoriously bad as a receiver, though he looked a little better this year. But it's insane to make him your primary target very often.

Why do we need to find ways to get him the ball more? It's like saying Kevin White needs more touches.

Who said anything about using him more. The issue is using him better. Again Payton balances 2 backs just fine in NO. Nagy simply hasn't figured it out yet. Ingram had the same YPC as Howard and not much of a pass catcher either. So how is it Payton can make it work.

 

[SugarWalls]

Who said anything about using him more. The issue is using him better. Again Payton balances 2 backs just fine in NO. Nagy simply hasn't figured it out yet. Ingram had the same YPC as Howard and not much of a pass catcher either. So how is it Payton can make it work.

You still ignore my argument.

 

[TL1961]

Howard had 4.9 yards a rush. Unless you telling me we just abandon the run your argument makes no sense. Someone has to run the ball and you probably dont want Cohen running 20 times a game.

So what you want to give Benny carries like Nagy stupidly did on the last drive?

I didn't say take him out completely. I am OK with his touches. You are saying they need to find ways to use him more. I am not trying to eliminate him completely. He's our RB and we need to run at times. But the idea that this is like little league baseball and everyone gets the same number of plays/touches is not one I agree with. That would be like saying a backup OLB should get more snaps and Mack should be subbed for.

We are running plays that are working, and you're asking the coaches to change just so Howard gets more touches.. I don't get it.

BTW, on the last drive, Benny got one touch for 4 yards while Howard was being rested. But that's just another reason to attack the play calling for you? I don't get it.

 

[TL1961]

Who said anything about using him more. The issue is using him better. Again Payton balances 2 backs just fine in NO. Nagy simply hasn't figured it out yet. Ingram had the same YPC as Howard and not much of a pass catcher either. So how is it Payton can make it work.

Wait. What?

Nagy gave him the ball in short yardage at the goal line, as everyone here seems to want - and he fumbled and cost us the game. He gave it to him when we needed a power back to get 4 yards - as everyone here seems to think he is good at, and he got zero. And the play call was ripped into. He is not a threat as a receiver and is clearly no better than the 6th best option as a receiver. What in the world do you want Nagy to do?

"Use him better"? because you just need to see him get the ball?

We are moving, scoring and rarely do we have the three and outs we always had when Howard was the feature of the offense. But we need to get him the ball?

 

[remydat]

I didn't say take him out completely. I am OK with his touches. You are saying they need to find ways to use him more. I am not trying to eliminate him completely. He's our RB and we need to run at times. But the idea that this is like little league baseball and everyone gets the same number of plays/touches is not one I agree with. That would be like saying a backup OLB should get more snaps and Mack should be subbed for.

We are running plays that are working, and you're asking the coaches to change just so Howard gets more touches.. I don't get it.

BTW, on the last drive, Benny got one touch for 4 yards while Howard was being rested. But that's just another reason to attack the play calling for you? I don't get it.

No I never said they need to use him more. I said Nagy needs to find the right balance.

Benny should get zero touches on the last drive. We have a fuck ton of play makers and you giving the ball to fucking Benny? If Howard being rested then put Cohen in there or let Trubisky throw the fucking ball.

Like holy shit. I would give the ball to Trubs, Howard, Cohen, ARob, Gab, Miller and Burton before Benny. Giving Benny a single touch in crunch time is stupid.

 

[TL1961]

I am no critic of Sean Payton, but you're asking how he is "making it work" with a HOF QB, a RB who was a first round pick after winning the heisman, another back picked higher than Howard, and one of the best young WR's in the league?

And Nagy is not "making something work" when in his first year his team has the highest PPG increase in the NFL??

 

[TL1961]

No I never said they need to use him more. I said Nagy needs to find the right balance.

Benny should get zero touches on the last drive. We have a fuck ton of play makers and you giving the ball to fucking Benny? If Howard being rested then put Cohen in there or let Trubisky throw the fucking ball.

Like holy shit. I would give the ball to Trubs, Howard, Cohen, ARob, Gab, Miller and Burton before Benny. Giving Benny a single touch in crunch time is stupid.

You didn't like Benny touching the ball when he got 4 yards, and wanted another touch by Cohen, who got one.

You wanted him to not give the ball to the guy not expected to get it at the same time you and others call the play calling too predictable.

You are discussing "balance" but Howard touched the ball as much as Cohen and we scored a lot of points. You're complaining, but I don't know why, and I really don't think you do either.

 

[Madden]

Howard is good and fills a role but seems to suck running out of shotgun which Nagy loves to do. Also doesn't have breakaway speed, isn't' a real receiving threat, and needs a few carries in a row to get into a groove. Cohen is definitely more versatile and fits this offense better but I still like Howard as a power back to get tough yards.

Plus he's still young, so theoretically can still improve. His YPC is trending in the wrong direction though. Needs to pop a few big ones every now and then. I would listen to trade offers but the return would have to be worth it. Like maybe some youngish, underrated power back that's more versatile. And get a decent draft pick also.

2016 - 5.2 YPC (elite)
2017 - 4.1 YPC (average)
2018 - 3.5 YPC (ehhhh)

 

[remydat]

Bolded are the RB's I would pass on to keep Jordan Howard

AFC East
NE - james white, sony michel: id take either
Miami - Kenyan drake, frank gore: again either one
NYJ - Crowell - has decent power and can catch okay, also has the potential to take one off
Bills - lesean mccoy - he's still good

AFC North
Cincy - Mixon: future star
Baltimore - Alex Collins: maybe a wash with howard if I'm being generous
Pitt - Bell, Conner has been good
Browns - Duke Johnson, Carlos Hyde, Chubb - I take Howard over Duke johnson but the dude is a pass threat and is not the #1 RB on this team

AFC South
Ten - Derrick Henry: yup I'd take him
Texans - Lamar Miller: I'll take howard over Miller for short yardage situations.
Jags: Fournette, Yeldon as RB2 is solid and an arguable upgrade to Howard
Colts: Marlon Mack: I'll tentatively say Howard but this is another toss up IMO

AFC West
Chiefs - Hunt
LA Chargers - Gordon
Broncos - Freeman / Lindsay: Give me Howard
Raiders: Marshawn: I'd take Marshawn but the dude is old

NFC East
Wash - Chris Thompson: give me howard
Dallas - Elliott: elite
Philly - Jay Ajayi
Giants - Barkley

NFC North
Chicago: Howard
Vikings: Dalvin Cook: Star
Packers: fuck these douches
Lions: Kerryon Johnson looks solid, Blount is a fucking train

NFC South
Carolina: Mccaffrey
NO: Kamara / Ingram: i'd gladly take either one
Tampa Bay: who???
Atlanta: Devonta Freeman, Tevin Coleman, this Ito dude

NFC West:
LA: Gurley: the GOAT
Seattle: Chris Carson
SF: McKinnon is gonna be good, and Brieda has been excellent
Ari: David Johnson: that offense is a mess but I'd take him in a heart beat.


I love Jordan Howard and it definitely feels dirty to dog him like this, especially considering he was THE ENTIRE OFFENSE for the last 2 years... When you look around the league though I have a REALLY HARD TIME saying he is anything more than average.

You guys tell me, who would you take Howard over? Am I missing anyone?

I take Howard over the whole AFC east. I take him over Mixon until Mixon proves durable. Take him over all the Browns.

Take him over Henry. Take him over Yeldon for sure and Fournette until Fournette proves durable. Take him over Lynch and Ajayi. Cook can't stay healthy and I take him over Johnson and Blount.

Ingram is a wash. Freeman hurt so no I go with Howard. Coleman has not proven he can be a bell cow so no. Carson you are kidding me and McKinnon has hit 4 YPC in a couple years and tore his knee up.

So yeah some of these guys you putting over Howard are laughable. They dont match his production and they can't even stay on the field.

I have no problem trading Howard next season as only truly elite RB should be paid IMO but most of the guys you have ahead of him I would not take over him if money was equal.

 

[remydat]

You didn't like Benny touching the ball when he got 4 yards, and wanted another touch by Cohen, who got one.

You wanted him to not give the ball to the guy not expected to get it at the same time you and others call the play calling too predictable.

You are discussing "balance" but Howard touched the ball as much as Cohen and we scored a lot of points. You're complaining, but I don't know why, and I really don't think you do either.

Umm I wanted us to pass. That was the point. You act like we only had to run. We did not. Trubs is the reason we came back and we didnt give him a single shot to get the ball to Arob, Burton, Cohen, Gabriel or Miller. That is dumb.

The balance comment was about the whole season not just this game as the OP was referring to the whole season.

Although in this game the issue was Howard all but disappeared until late.

We were terrible in the first half so no that is not balance. 0 in the first half and 28 in the 2nd half is not balance and we had 2 fucking weeks to prepare for them.

Nagy is good overall but his offense was disjointed this game. You would have to be b look blind to not see that given the first half.

 

[nc0gnet0]

I take Howard over the whole AFC east. I take him over Mixon until Mixon proves durable. Take him over all the Browns.

Take him over Henry. Take him over Yeldon for sure and Fournette until Fournette proves durable. Take him over Lynch and Ajayi. Cook can't stay healthy and I take him over Johnson and Blount.

Ingram is a wash. Freeman hurt so no I go with Howard. Coleman has not proven he can be a bell cow so no. Carson you are kidding me and McKinnon has hit 4 YPC in a couple years and tore his knee up.

So yeah some of these guys you putting over Howard are laughable. They dont match his production and they can't even stay on the field.

I have no problem trading Howard next season as only truly elite RB should be paid IMO but most of the guys you have ahead of him I would not take over him if money was equal.

Interesting, I was thinking about this earlier. In todays NFL it is more to do with groupings and scheme fit

so, it's more like:

Howard, Cohen, and Cunningham

or

johnson, Blount, and Riddick

It's an interesting question

 

[SugarWalls]

Interesting, I was thinking about this earlier. In todays NFL it is more to do with groupings and scheme fit

so, it's more like:

Howard, Cohen, and Cunningham

or

johnson, Blount, and Riddick

It's an interesting question

I think it is really critical to have a guy in the back field that can catch the ball. Having a back line up and then run out and catch a pass is really difficulty for a defense to key in on. It has worked for a few years for NE and everyone seems to have caught on to some extent.

Gurley has to be the premier guy doing it right now, and that is a bit of an extreme comparison.

Cohen is almost invaluable to this offense at this point in time for that exact reason IMO.

 

[remydat]

Interesting, I was thinking about this earlier. In todays NFL it is more to do with groupings and scheme fit

so, it's more like:

Howard, Cohen, and Cunningham

or

johnson, Blount, and Riddick

It's an interesting question

I take Howard and Cohen all day every day. The Bears need to just feature Cohen while pounding the ball with Howard.

The problem today was they took too long to get Cohen involved and then when he was they completely forgot they had Howard until the last drive.

The back and forth between Cohen and Howard needs to be more seamless. It isn't right now. And again Cohen should really be the starter with Howard as his change of Pace. That would get Cohen more involved sooner and I think makes for a more natural transition to Howard when Cohen needs a rest.

Bears doing it backwards and that is sort of the problem.

 

[nc0gnet0]

I take Howard and Cohen all day every day. The Bears need to just feature Cohen while pounding the ball with Howard.

The problem today was they took too long to get Cohen involved and then when he was they completely forgot they had Howard until the last drive.

The back and forth between Cohen and Howard needs to be more seamless. It isn't right now. And again Cohen should really be the starter with Howard as his change of Pace. That would get Cohen more involved sooner and I think makes for a more natural transition to Howard when Cohen needs a rest.

Bears doing it backwards and that is sort of the problem.

Not so sure I would, but a little too early to tell IMO. Something to re-visit later in the season. I can't deny Cohen's talent, but I question Howard's fit in this offense. Having a back like KJ is a little less of a dead giveaway as to what play your going to run, and I would have much rather had Blount on that goal line run.

 

[remydat]

Not so sure I would, but a little too early to tell IMO. Something to re-visit later in the season. I can't deny Cohen's talent, but I question Howard's fit in this offense. Having a back like KJ is a little less of a dead giveaway as to what play your going to run, and I would have much rather had Blount on that goal line run.

Thing is dont think either back telegraphs anything. Cohen can run just fine as shown by his TD and Howard's hands looked much improved in the early games. Nagy just isn't taking advantage of it.

Of the 4, Cohen is the best overall player and again he should be the feature back. In today's NFL your feature back doesn't need 20 Carrie's. You give him 7-10 Carries and another 7 to 10 passes and that is fine for a feature back. Howard just eats up the rest

 

[nc0gnet0]

Thing is dont think either back telegraphs anything. Cohen can run just fine as shown by his TD and Howard's hands looked much improved in the early games. Nagy just isn't taking advantage of it.

Of the 4, Cohen is the best overall player and again he should be the feature back. In today's NFL your feature back doesn't need 20 Carrie's. You give him 7-10 Carries and another 7 to 10 passes and that is fine for a feature back. Howard just eats up the rest

I dunno, your reply made it sound like an easy call, and I am calling BS on that. I think it's close, and which grouping you want could depend on scheme fit, whereas one might be better for one team and the opposite for the other.