Thoughts on the Pace/Nagy Situation

[BNB]

**Before anyone rips their dick off - This is not a thread advocating that we should have kept either one of them. Just a random thought I had when discussing the situation with some friends.**

Looking at the Brian Flores situation - A lot of people (myself included) have praised the job he's done in Miami, despite finishing with a record 1 game below .500. Why is he being praised? Because he had a poorly assembled team and still found ways to win games.

Seems like the consensus with Bears fans is that Pace did a very bad job constructing this team. If that's true, then isn't the fact that Nagy finished with an overall record of 3 games above .500 and 2 playoff appearances also impressive?

On the flip side, if we were to agree that the Bears roster was solid and the Bears should have done more over the last 4 years than they did, then shouldn't we be complimenting Pace for assembling a talented team, but trashing Nagy for not optimizing said talent?

Yet, we as fans seem to talkin as they both did a bad job...

But it doesn't seem true to say both did an awful/bad job. When both the GM and HC do an awful job, the results are much, much worse than a record of 34-31 and two playoff appearances.

At worst, I think the fair thing to say about these two is that Pace assembled an average team and Nagy produced average results. Pace did some good things, but also did some bad things. Nagy went out there and performed at the level of the talent that he had.... Didn't make them much better, but also didn't make them much worse.

Looking back at it, I would say that at best, Ryan Pace did an average job. At worst, he did a poor job. At best, Nagy did a pretty good job, and at worst, did an average job.

I guess, overall what I'm trying to say is that Pace was at more fault than Nagy. I think if Nagy finds the right fit, he may be successful. That fit just wasn't with the Bears.

 

[sevvy]

Nagy's offense.

/thread

 

[Les Grossman]

If Nagy’s offense was even decent, he wouldn’t have fielded units that were dead last in the league offensively even with poor players

 

[Dejo]

The amazing thing was getting rid of Howard to start incorporating more of a receiving game from RBs, but outside of Cohen playing a gadget role, it never materialized. Realized that today.

Pace gave him players to make this happen.

 

[BNB]

If Nagy’s offense was even decent, he wouldn’t have fielded units that were dead last in the league offensively even with poor players

I don't disagree.

The point I was making was this - If we agree that the offensive talent sucked, then that's more of a mark against Pace than Nagy.

It doesn't make sense to say that the talent on the offensive side of the ball sucks, but then also say Nagy's offense was no good. Maybe it was no good because the talent sucked?

But again, on the flip side... If we say the talent was fine, then that's a mark against Nagy, but then we'd have to admit that Pace assembled a good team, but just hired the wrong coach.

Both don't seem to be true based on the results that were produced. If both truly did suck, we would have had like 15 wins combined the last 4 years.

 

[Anytime23]

Flores started his Dolphins career under a front office that was actively tanking for Tua.
Nagy started his under a front office that was going all in.

Flores has the Patriots number.
Nagy has the Lions number.

One coach's side of the ball performs at an acceptable level. The other's is one of the laughing stocks of the NFL.

This all is much more than win/loss, which is more on the GM than anything.

EDIT: May i add that Nagy had the benefit of "collaboration". Flores spent his whole tenure fighting with his superiors.

I don't know if Flores is to blame for some of the coordinator issues but i absolutely do know that Matt Nagy cant coach and he was very lucky to have the #1, 4 and 14 defenses get him to .500 or better his first 3 seasons.

 

[ThatGuyRyan]

 

[ThatGuyRyan]

This is a slightly below average roster with very , very poor coaching.. not Giants bad coaching but fucking close That's it. Pace was not terrible, average is fair and average obviously doesn't get you more than a .500 record.

 

[BNB]

This is a slightly below average roster with very , very poor coaching.. not Giants bad coaching but fucking close That's it. Pace was not terrible, average is fair and average obviously doesn't get you more than a .500 record.

Right, which was how I basically concluded my point.

I think in hindsight, it wasn't as bad as we make it seem.

Again, not saying we should have kept him. 3 years of average results in the NFL isn't great.

But the way we talk about it doesn't seem to fit reality. We make excuses for other coaches/GMs that we want, but their results were comparable or sometimes worse than what Nagy and Pace produced.

Just seems odd.

 

[ThatGuyRyan]

Right, which was how I basically concluded my point.

I think in hindsight, it wasn't as bad as we make it seem.

Again, not saying we should have kept him. 3 years of average results in the NFL isn't great.

But the way we talk about it doesn't seem to fit reality. We make excuses for other coaches/GMs that we want, but their results were comparable or sometimes worse than what Nagy and Pace produced.

Just seems odd.

"They beat up on bad teams" -- A story of the Ryan Pace years

As far as Nagy, Vic Fangio seriously propped up that 12-4 season. law of averages 2019-2021 we would finish 7-9 probably without Fangio. He's not a good coach. I think he's not that great of leader for his coordinators, he sucks.

 

[Anytime23]

Right, which was how I basically concluded my point.

I think in hindsight, it wasn't as bad as we make it seem.

Again, not saying we should have kept him. 3 years of average results in the NFL isn't great.

But the way we talk about it doesn't seem to fit reality. We make excuses for other coaches/GMs that we want, but their results were comparable or sometimes worse than what Nagy and Pace produced.

Just seems odd.

what direction did this team look like it was going in?

 

[BNB]

what direction did this team look like it was going in?

When?

IMO, it's been heading south the last couple of years.

When Nagy joined the team, I think we surpassed expectations. No one expected us to be 12-4 and potentially content for a SB if double doink didn't happen.

After that, the expectations were high because of the success we achieved in year 1 of Nagy. But honestly, the talent did not improve afterwards.

based on the talent level of this roster, I would say the Bears performed at about the level one would anticipate them to perform at.

 

[tgmxd]

I think they are both young enough they have a chance to get better at some point. I think Pace was getting slightly better with his drafting but it was just too late

Hopefully for both of them they will get another shot some day down the road

 

[pseudonym]

Nope. Nagy was terrible. Did not adjust. Did not support Fields. FUCK THAT GUY. He was bad. And Pace was equally responsible. No, I don't think either should be given another shot. Ever. Anywhere. GOD they are inept.

 

[Anytime23]

When?

IMO, it's been heading south the last couple of years.

Thats exactly why they had to move on. People can say whatever they want about the way the Dolphins started out but to win 8 of 9 games after such a horrid start, its truly impressive. Its never happened before. Nagy getting a few late season wins against the Lions, Giants and whoever the hell else it was it another story in 2020.

There is a reason why a lot of people are pounding the table for Flores right now and absolutely no one is questioning why Nagy got fired. Nagy had a game"plan" so awful that people went on air in front of millions of viewers and questioned whether he intentionally sabotaged his QB. Just look at the final game. Complete joke.

Nagy has shown absolutely nothing to make anyone believe this is because of a bad fit or the wrong situation. Nonsense talk. When you have to keep firing yourself from making the same mistakes, you show an inability to grow. When you see a guy in complete control of an offense and it looks exactly the same for 3+ years, it shows an inability to grow.

Nagy kept getting his next QB, and Pace is certainly a part of that, but it always looked the same. Nagy as a HC is toast and id be shocked if any team lets him be their OC within the next 3 years after the shit-show he put on.

 

[ThatGuyRyan]

 

[sevvy]

Both don't seem to be true based on the results that were produced. If both truly did suck, we would have had like 15 wins combined the last 4 years.

The defense carried Nagy's team to enough wins to make him look competent for a short period of time. 3 1/2 years of inept offense finally did Nagy in.

Aside from the occasional good win, Nagy's team only beat bum teams. He was 100% a bumslayer. His offense was outdated, confusing to everyone but the defense it faced. His team was undisciplined, made repeated mistakes, lost their cool every game with seemingly zero accountability. He was a poor decision maker, he was bad at playcalling, bad at clock management. I honestly don't know what he did well. He just wasn't the worst. Which is why teams like the Giants, Lions, Vikings, Falcons, Jaguars, Texans, WFT, etc. still lost to us.

A win under Nagy was fool's gold.

 

[Rise]

22-27 without Fangio. Offense was his thing and it was horrible. That’s his story. If he just put out a top 15 offense he would have a dominant record and be extended. He was just sadly, a complete fraud.

 

[BNB]

Thats exactly why they had to move on. People can say whatever they want about the way the Dolphins started out but to win 8 of 9 games after such a horrid start, its truly impressive. Its never happened before. Nagy getting a few late season wins against the Lions, Giants and whoever the hell else it was it another story in 2020.

There is a reason why a lot of people are pounding the table for Flores right now and absolutely no one is questioning why Nagy got fired. Nagy had a game"plan" so awful that people went on air in front of millions of viewers and questioned whether he intentionally sabotaged his QB. Just look at the final game. Complete joke.

Nagy has shown absolutely nothing to make anyone believe this is because of a bad fit or the wrong situation. Nonsense talk. When you have to keep firing yourself from making the same mistakes, you show an inability to grow. When you see a guy in complete control of an offense and it looks exactly the same for 3+ years, it shows an inability to grow.

Nagy kept getting his next QB, and Pace is certainly a part of that, but it always looked the same. Nagy as a HC is toast and id be shocked if any team lets him be their OC within the next 3 years after the shit-show he put on.

I think it maybe comes down to the expectations that people had to begin with.

In Nagy's first year, I didn't have the Bears making the playoffs. In year 2, I think I had them at 9-7, and they finished at 8-8. Year 3, I believe I had them at 6-10, and they finished at 8-8 again. In year 4, I think I had 5 wins, and they finished with 6.

So overall, while I was obviously not impressed with the job Nagy did, they did surpass my expectations.

I don't disagree about Flores. I was one of the first posters in that thread clamoring about how good of a job Flores did in Miami.

 

[BNB]

22-27 without Fangio. Offense was his thing and it was horrible. That’s his story. If he just put out a top 15 offense he would have a dominant record and be extended. He was just sadly, a complete fraud.

But do you think we had good offensive talent?

If not, then is that really Nagy's fault?

If yes, then are you saying that Pace actually wasn't bad?