Thoughts on the Pace/Nagy Situation

[TexasBearfan]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1481013746331967490

 

[sevvy]

same questions I had to the other guy:


But do you think we had good offensive talent?

If not, then is that really Nagy's fault?

If yes, then are you saying that Pace actually wasn't bad?

If we think the offensive talent sucked - then I think it would be fairer to say that Nagy was working with what he had. If we think the offensive talent was good, then it makes sense to say Nagy sucked... but then, in essence, we're saying Pace did a good job of assembling a roster that Nagy botched.

If we're saying both sucked, then wouldn't have we done much worse? I get "lucking" into wins here and there... but to hang around .500 for 4 straight years doesn't happen because you're lucky. It happens because you really simply are just average.

(NOTE: I don't disagree with what you said. Again, I wanted this guy gone as much as anyone.)

We have middling offensive talent at skill positions overall. But we have shit talent on the offensive line. That is definitely Pace's fault. I think a good coaching staff could turn this shitshow around pretty quickly.

The problems go deeper than "is the roster good", though. If the offense sucked, but everything else Nagy was responsible for as a coach was good, then firing himself as playcaller might have been enough. You can't blame the penalties, clock management, lack of adjustments, playcalling, etc. on the roster. That's on the coach.

And the problems for Pace go deeper than just the roster. He's mismanaged things, too. Draft picks, trades, contracts, personnel decisions, head coaching hires.

They are just not the guys. I'm glad they're finally gone.

 

[jooo83]

Nope. Nagy was terrible. Did not adjust. Did not support Fields. FUCK THAT GUY. He was bad. And Pace was equally responsible. No, I don't think either should be given another shot. Ever. Anywhere. GOD they are inept.

I'm no Pace apologist but I think he will get a job as director or player personal or college scouting pretty quickly. But unless KC rehires him Nagy it will take him years to get another guy as an OC let alone a head coach. Imagine trying to sell that guy to your fan base as a person that calls plays?

 

[Dejo]

Dayuuuuummmmm

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1481390944670797824

 

[DB012031]

Was the scheme crap because of poor talent though? If you recall, our O-line was pretty fuckin bad for a couple of years there. Like, one of the worst in the league bad. Add a lack of good targets and inconsistent play at QB, and how can we possibly expect the offense to look any good?

This doesn't excuse Nagy's multiple mishaps, but I also don't know if it's fair to toss the blame on Nagy when the talent on the offensive side of the ball just wasn't good.

Even the best offensive minds the league has ever seen have had awful seasons when they lacked talent.

With that being said, the lack of adjustments and the fact that we couldn't seem to get anything going for long stretches is why I agree that Nagy needed to go.

IMO, the issue with Nagy's offense though was that he NEVER adjusted to either what the defense was doing or the limitations of the offense.

Yes, our talent wasn't all that great, but it was decent enough to expect much better results. I mean anyone with any football knowledge was begging for more play-action and bootlegs with Mitch...Nagy would go to it for 1 game...Then would abandon it for several games after.

Some of the talking heads said it best, Nagy's offense was basically a collection of plays but no strategy or cohesion. I mean come one, 4th and 1 for 3 times against the vikings and the idiot never gave Monty the ball. That just shows the guy had no clue no matter the talent on the field

 

[Bearly]

**Before anyone rips their dick off - This is not a thread advocating that we should have kept either one of them. Just a random thought I had when discussing the situation with some friends.**

Looking at the Brian Flores situation - A lot of people (myself included) have praised the job he's done in Miami, despite finishing with a record 1 game below .500. Why is he being praised? Because he had a poorly assembled team and still found ways to win games.

Seems like the consensus with Bears fans is that Pace did a very bad job constructing this team. If that's true, then isn't the fact that Nagy finished with an overall record of 3 games above .500 and 2 playoff appearances also impressive?

On the flip side, if we were to agree that the Bears roster was solid and the Bears should have done more over the last 4 years than they did, then shouldn't we be complimenting Pace for assembling a talented team, but trashing Nagy for not optimizing said talent?

Yet, we as fans seem to talkin as they both did a bad job...

But it doesn't seem true to say both did an awful/bad job. When both the GM and HC do an awful job, the results are much, much worse than a record of 34-31 and two playoff appearances.

At worst, I think the fair thing to say about these two is that Pace assembled an average team and Nagy produced average results. Pace did some good things, but also did some bad things. Nagy went out there and performed at the level of the talent that he had.... Didn't make them much better, but also didn't make them much worse.

Looking back at it, I would say that at best, Ryan Pace did an average job. At worst, he did a poor job. At best, Nagy did a pretty good job, and at worst, did an average job.

I guess, overall what I'm trying to say is that Pace was at more fault than Nagy. I think if Nagy finds the right fit, he may be successful. That fit just wasn't with the Bears.

I think you have the 2 evaluations inverted and part of that is from Nagy being accommodated by Pace. That said Pace was below average overall and Nagy a fail.

 

[Bearly]

We have middling offensive talent at skill positions overall. But we have shit talent on the offensive line. That is definitely Pace's fault. I think a good coaching staff could turn this shitshow around pretty quickly.

The problems go deeper than "is the roster good", though. If the offense sucked, but everything else Nagy was responsible for as a coach was good, then firing himself as playcaller might have been enough. You can't blame the penalties, clock management, lack of adjustments, playcalling, etc. on the roster. That's on the coach.

And the problems for Pace go deeper than just the roster. He's mismanaged things, too. Draft picks, trades, contracts, personnel decisions, head coaching hires.

They are just not the guys. I'm glad they're finally gone.

WRs are shit outside of Mooney who's a much better kind of #2.

 

[iueyedoc]

But do you think we had good offensive talent?

If not, then is that really Nagy's fault?

If yes, then are you saying that Pace actually wasn't bad?

The Bears had probably lower middle of the road talent (14th-21st) on offensive the last few seasons.

Thus Pace was bad.

Nagy coached that talent to 23rd and 27th in points and 26th and 24th in yards.

Thus Nagy was bad.

Pace hired Nagy so Pace is bad again.

Both can be true.

 

[remydat]

Pace is fired because he drafted Trubisky over Mahomes.

Nagy is fired because his players didnt know what the fuck they were doing on O.

 

[JP Hochbaum]

**Before anyone rips their dick off - This is not a thread advocating that we should have kept either one of them. Just a random thought I had when discussing the situation with some friends.**

Looking at the Brian Flores situation - A lot of people (myself included) have praised the job he's done in Miami, despite finishing with a record 1 game below .500. Why is he being praised? Because he had a poorly assembled team and still found ways to win games.

Seems like the consensus with Bears fans is that Pace did a very bad job constructing this team. If that's true, then isn't the fact that Nagy finished with an overall record of 3 games above .500 and 2 playoff appearances also impressive?

On the flip side, if we were to agree that the Bears roster was solid and the Bears should have done more over the last 4 years than they did, then shouldn't we be complimenting Pace for assembling a talented team, but trashing Nagy for not optimizing said talent?

Yet, we as fans seem to talkin as they both did a bad job...

But it doesn't seem true to say both did an awful/bad job. When both the GM and HC do an awful job, the results are much, much worse than a record of 34-31 and two playoff appearances.

At worst, I think the fair thing to say about these two is that Pace assembled an average team and Nagy produced average results. Pace did some good things, but also did some bad things. Nagy went out there and performed at the level of the talent that he had.... Didn't make them much better, but also didn't make them much worse.

Looking back at it, I would say that at best, Ryan Pace did an average job. At worst, he did a poor job. At best, Nagy did a pretty good job, and at worst, did an average job.

I guess, overall what I'm trying to say is that Pace was at more fault than Nagy. I think if Nagy finds the right fit, he may be successful. That fit just wasn't with the Bears.

I thought Nagy sucked.
As for Pace I thought years 1-3 he was pretty bad at drafting. Then years 4-7 he improved year after year. But ultimately its his pick of Mitch and Nagy that did him in. Otherwise I think he did better than average the last 4 years. But the sum of his parts were average.

 

[mecha]

Letting Lovie Smith go was a mistake. Does anyone know why that happened with his 10-6 record that season?

it's funny people say Nagy couldn't beat winning teams when literally Lovie Smith 2012's team couldn't beat winning teams. or had to promote MIKE TICE to be the offensive coordinator cause nobody else on the planet wanted the job. but hey, Cutler got them all fired right?

 

[BringBackDitka54]

The only actual blue chip talent on offense is Fields. Pace get's no credit for lucking into that.

I disagree.

You can't fault Pace for being too aggressive by trading up in drafts, but then give him no credit when it actually works out.

Give credit where credit is due. Plenty of other GMs could have made that trade for Fields, but they didn't.

 

[Broc]

I disagree.

You can't fault Pace for being too aggressive by trading up in drafts, but then give him no credit when it actually works out.

Give credit where credit is due. Plenty of other GMs could have made that trade for Fields, but they didn't.

I'm not faulting Pace for being "too aggressive" tho... that was pretty much the only thing I liked about him actually.
I just don't believe he deserves credit for lucking into Fields when the issue should've been fixed back in 2017.

But no, he had to be the moron that traded up one spot for Mitch fucking Trubisky when he all he had to do was sit back, relax, and take the easy layup (Watson) that was about to fall into his lap.

Between the draft whiffs, roster mismanagement, and hiring of Nagy it's impossible to justify him keeping his job.

Not to mention his rob from Peter to pay Paul style of drafting isn't sustainable and has left the next GM with a totally fucked roster to un-fuck with little resources.

Oh and his and Nagy's collaboration schtick and corporate speak was nauseating to listen to.

Fuck em both.

 

[pfcmsh]

The Bears had probably lower middle of the road talent (14th-21st) on offensive the last few seasons.

Thus Pace was bad.

Nagy coached that talent to 23rd and 27th in points and 26th and 24th in yards.

Thus Nagy was bad.

Pace hired Nagy so Pace is bad again.

Both can be true.

Pace record as Bears GM 48-65. That's the bottom line.

 

[legendxofxlink]

Pace had a great long term plan IMO. Build and buy an elite defense. Slowly build the offense up through the draft and get an offensive minded coach to get the most out of the players. He just fucked up his choices terribly...

1.
Fox should’ve been fired a year earlier and hired Kyle Shanahan.
2.
Kevin White pick bombed. You can get over that.
3.
Trubisky pick bombed. However Shanahan would’ve gotten him to a SB in ‘18.
4.
TE was disastrous his entire tenure, he could never figure it out.
5.
These fuckups above made him neglect the OL.