Too much one-on-one

AirP

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dougthonus wrote:
Should Ray Allen come off the bench? His numbers aren't any more consistent per game.

I think a number of Boston fans were wondering the same thing about him. Then again, he's the 3rd option on that team and doesn't mind, I'd also have to venture to guess he doesn't take the ball out of his PGs hands nearly as much as Gordon does. I also tend to think that at this point in his career Gordon would have a problem being the 3rd option on a team.
 

Ralphb07

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On a serious note in regards to Gordon better suited for the bench or a starter. IMO it's based on who else starts with him. I've said on Real GM that I wouldn't mind having Miller-Noah-Deng-Salmons-Rose start to give us more size to start the game and use Gordon as a 6th man because it might be better for the team balance wise


With that said Gordon is clearly a starter and plays like one and it would be a luxury having a guy like him off the bench

Do I care or will I put up a fight of a Noah-Tyrus-Deng-Gordon-Rose lineup.... NO but I just don't like the overall size of that group and feel we'll get out rebounded pretty easily unless Tyrus learns how to box out this summer

And my concern has nothing really to do with Gordon it's Tyrus and by having Miller and Gordon start I feel the offensive power bench wise wouldn't be too good which I why I proposed the Salmons and Miller on Real GM

Gordon is a starter and plays like one and is a damn good offensive player and he'll won't be back guys
 

dougthonus

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I think a number of Boston fans were wondering the same thing about him. Then again, he's the 3rd option on that team and doesn't mind, I'd also have to venture to guess he doesn't take the ball out of his PGs hands nearly as much as Gordon does. I also tend to think that at this point in his career Gordon would have a problem being the 3rd option on a team.

The problem with Gordon then isn't that he's too inconsistent to be a #1 scorer, the problem is that we don't have two better scorers on our team to allow him to have Ray Allen's role on the team.

I don't know Gordon's personal thoughts any more than you do. I would imagine that he'd feel differently about being a #3 option to Pierce/Garnett than he would being a #3 option to Rose/Salmons. However, I think Gordon has always played the role he's been asked without complaint even if he doesn't like it.
 

AirP

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dougthonus wrote:
I think a number of Boston fans were wondering the same thing about him. Then again, he's the 3rd option on that team and doesn't mind, I'd also have to venture to guess he doesn't take the ball out of his PGs hands nearly as much as Gordon does. I also tend to think that at this point in his career Gordon would have a problem being the 3rd option on a team.

The problem with Gordon then isn't that he's too inconsistent to be a #1 scorer, the problem is that we don't have two better scorers on our team to allow him to have Ray Allen's role on the team.

I don't know Gordon's personal thoughts any more than you do. I would imagine that he'd feel differently about being a #3 option to Pierce/Garnett than he would being a #3 option to Rose/Salmons. However, I think Gordon has always played the role he's been asked without complaint even if he doesn't like it.

He's been very professional so far in his career... but I will say that it's looked like in games he's decided to call himself even though Vinnie didn't this year(not all the time, but here and there).

I'd probably have nearly as much to gripe about with Salmons if he wasn't as good as a defender as he is(or on such a valued contract). One on one ability is nice to have, but when you have a talent like Rose on the court it's just a waste not to utilize him UNLESS the other players have a definate advantage(poor defenders). Rose is a scorer and gets other people involved in the offense... Gordon and Salmons are only scorers.
 

2ndcitydiehard

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AirP wrote:
2ndcitydiehard wrote:
3) The idea of John Salmons next year scares the hell out of me. So many factors point to his season being a fluke and the idea that we could hand even more of BG's iso plays to The Fish next year could be awful.

Or he's really not had the oppertunities.

In Philly he was behind some guy named Iverson at SG, then came Iggy into play(although he did finally get minutes there in an offense built around Iverson).
In Sacremento he was behind Kevin Martin and Ron Artest.

Last season was the first season Salmons was on the court where he was on pace to put up more then 10 shots in 36 minutes. This year he was needed more, got more shots and showed that he is a capable scorer. I don't think this year(and last year) was a fluke at all, he's just been on teams that have had better scorers so he wasn't in a scorer's role.

Never posted a 3pt% over 36% (mostly about 33%) and suddenly shoots 42%. Never posted a PER for a season over 13.9 (mostly 12 and below) and suddenly posts a 16. There is serious statisical evidence that guys who make serious leaps at Salmons age (29 this year, 30 next) regress. The guy just had a career year that he is unlikely to repeat.

Sure he got more shots than before but the true key to Salmons increase in efficency is shooting four 3's a game and hitting 42% of them where at every other time in his career he'd shot two 3's a game and hit 33%... I am just saying one of these things is not like the others. Teams are often burned by expecting guys to repeat career years, people who are expecting Salmons to be the same player next year are likely to be very disappointed.
 

AirP

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dougthonus wrote:
I think a number of Boston fans were wondering the same thing about him. Then again, he's the 3rd option on that team and doesn't mind, I'd also have to venture to guess he doesn't take the ball out of his PGs hands nearly as much as Gordon does. I also tend to think that at this point in his career Gordon would have a problem being the 3rd option on a team.

The problem with Gordon then isn't that he's too inconsistent to be a #1 scorer, the problem is that we don't have two better scorers on our team to allow him to have Ray Allen's role on the team.

I don't know Gordon's personal thoughts any more than you do. I would imagine that he'd feel differently about being a #3 option to Pierce/Garnett than he would being a #3 option to Rose/Salmons. However, I think Gordon has always played the role he's been asked without complaint even if he doesn't like it.

I guess you're right... not too inconsistent to be a #1 scorer...
Playoffs...
Game 1 - 35% FG%
Game 2 - 58% FG%
Game 3 - 39% FG%
Game 4 - 46% FG% - Hurt hamstring during game
Game 5 - 29% FG%
Game 6 - 29% FG%
Game 7 - 30% FG%

Hurt in Game 4, so up until then he'd had 1 great shooting game, 1 good shooting game 1 bad shooting game and 1 horrible shooting game. That seems inconsistant to me, I guess your opinions differ about that.

I'll give you... had Gordon, Salmons or Deng been healthy the whole 7 games Boston wouldn't have gotten past us. Hell, one bad call may have cost us the series.
 

dougthonus

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I just don't like the overall size of that group and feel we'll get out rebounded pretty easily unless Tyrus learns how to box out this summer

Salmons has .7 more rebounds per minute than Gordon and plays at a higher rebounding position for most of his minutes.
 

AirP

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dougthonus wrote:
I just don't like the overall size of that group and feel we'll get out rebounded pretty easily unless Tyrus learns how to box out this summer

Salmons has .7 more rebounds per minute than Gordon and plays at a higher rebounding position for most of his minutes.

Yes.... Salmons isn't a good rebounder which is a much bigger problem when he's playing SF.
 

dougthonus

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I guess you're right... not too inconsistent to be a #1 scorer...
Playoffs...
Game 1 - 35% FG%
Game 2 - 58% FG%
Game 3 - 39% FG%
Game 4 - 46% FG% - Hurt hamstring during game
Game 5 - 29% FG%
Game 6 - 29% FG%
Game 7 - 30% FG%

FG% isn't a particularly accurate way to judge consistency. Lists points per possession used for all his games.

A possession is when you shoot, get to the line, or turn the ball over:

Game 1: 20 points, 21 possessions
Game 2: 42 points, 28 possessions
Game 3: 15 points, 17 possessions
Game 4: 22 points, 25 possessions
Game 5: 26 points, 28 possessions
Game 6: 12 points, 18 possessions
Game 7: 33 points, 32 possessions
Total: 170 points, 169 possessions

He had one game where he was ultra efficient, one game where he was terribly inefficient, and five games where he was close to 1:1. He played with an injury which notably hampered him for three of the seven games. His scoring consistency was pretty his low water marks were 12 points and 15 points.

Let's look at Paul Pierce:
Game 1: 24 points, 28 possessions
Game 2: 18 points, 24 possessions
Game 3: 24 points, 17 possessions
Game 4: 29 points, 34 possessions
Game 5: 26 points, 26 possessions
Game 6: 22 points, 22 possessions
Game 7: 20 points, 24 possessions
Total: 163 points, 175

He had 1 game where he was ultra efficient, 4 gamers where he was moderately inefficient, and two games where he was 1:1, His point production was very consistent even if his scoring efficiency wasn't.

Let's look at Ray Allen:
Game 1: 4 points, 14 possessions
Game 2: 30 points, 21 possessions
Game 3: 18 points, 15 possessions
Game 4: 28 points, 23 possessions
Game 5: 10 points, 11 possessions
Game 6: 51 points, 38 possessions
Game 7: 23 points, 18 possessions
Total: 165 points, 140 possessions
Allen was great, outside of his game 1, he was basically awesome. He was consistently efficient, having very good efficiency in 5 of 7 games, 1 super dud, and 1 game where he was average. Of course his points were all over the board, as he has 2 very low point games.

Let's look at Derrick Rose:
Game 1: 36 points, 30 possessions
Game 2: 10 points, 13 possessions
Game 3: 9 points, 22 possessions
Game 4: 23 points, 26 possessions
Game 5: 14 points, 26 possessions
Game 6: 28 points, 33 possessions
Game 7: 18 points, 21 possessions
Total: 138 points, 171 possessions
Basically, his efficiency was god awful for most of the series with only one game of good efficiency all series. His scoring consistency was also pretty bad with games of 9, 10, and 14 points while he scored 36 and 28 in other games.

Let's look at John Salmons
Game 1: 12 points, 17 possessions
Game 2: 17 points, 21 possessions
Game 3: 14 points, 17 possessions
Game 4: 20 points, 19 possessions
Game 5: 17 points, 19 possessions
Game 6: 35 points, 26 possessions
Game 7: 12 points, 17 possessions
Total: 127 points, 136 possessions
Salmons played through a sore groin which may have effected his play (though he did not look as visibly hobbled as Ben after the hamstring injury). His efficiency was basically poor for the whole series except for game 6, his total point consistency was basically poor too as he had duds in three games and lower games two more with only 17 points.
 

Dpauley23

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Are you forgetting that Salmons also had an injury? One team offical said it was less than 50 percent healthy
 

VinnysLastTimeout

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Doug,

Thanks for running my email last podcast. I must say, hearing my words read in the famous Thonus email-reading accelerated voice cadence has been a lifelong dream of mine. (Well, more accurately, a dream since I began listening to the podcast about this time last year.)

Great article on the website about Gordon's isolations. I must say this probably obviates some of the arguments I was making. In my defense, I was basing most of my observations on the Boston series, as I don't have league pass so really only saw about 10 regular season games this past year. I still maintain we ran too many isolations for Gordon in that series, and that he took some patently terrible shots, such as at the end of game 5. It appears though that in the regular season it wasn't as bad.

As an aside, I should note that I don't believe Gordon is "selfish" in the sense that he cares about himself more about the team. I think he legitimately believes that his taking a contested or even severely contested jumper is a good way to help the team score. I just think he's wrong about that and he should pass when he's unable to get open for a clear look.
 

dougthonus

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It's worth noting that Gordon still does use a lot of isolations. When I started this article I really didn't have any idea what I'd find, but the results were about what I expected.

Gordon uses a normal number of iso's for his scoring caliber, efficiency in that situation, and overall scoring rate.

I think one thing that's interesting is a lot of us view Gordon as having a Ray Allen role in a team, and Allen basically never uses isolation play. I think that's on VDN to create an offense that allows Gordon to get the ball off screens more though and use him as an off the ball player more.
 

fola

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VinnysLastTimeout wrote:
Doug,

Thanks for running my email last podcast. I must say, hearing my words read in the famous Thonus email-reading accelerated voice cadence has been a lifelong dream of mine.

Now just picture doug menacingly staring at his poor parrot while reading it. Piercing into his soul. Makes the moment that much more incredible, no?
 

HINrichPolice

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Hey Doug, just about to read the article. Just wanted to say that we appreciate the great articles you, Coldfish, Morten, and others have posted on this site. You should try to get some pub by getting this linked to TrueHoop or some other site viewed daily by NBA fans.
 

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Great article. Ben is a 20+ ppg scorer and his isos reflect that. Personally I think he would be much more successful if we tried to make him more of a Ray Allen by running him through continuous screens. That way he scores more efficiently and if he has to go iso, he's still good so it will overall help him as a scorer.
 

dougthonus

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HINrichPolice wrote:
Hey Doug, just about to read the article. Just wanted to say that we appreciate the great articles you, Coldfish, Morten, and others have posted on this site. You should try to get some pub by getting this linked to TrueHoop or some other site viewed daily by NBA fans.

I'm working on it.
 

Bullsman24

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well it would, but that's not ben's game.

he can take people off the dribble, so he should. why contain him?
 

Kush77

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DT, I liked the article and talked about it on my latest podcast.

Is the effectiveness measured just by scoring from the iso, or does drawing a foul factor into the percentage??
 

dougthonus

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Kush77 wrote:
DT, I liked the article and talked about it on my latest podcast.

Is the effectiveness measured just by scoring from the iso, or does drawing a foul factor into the percentage??

It factors in fouls drawn and how often you hit your free throws as well as turnovers. So basically it factors everything.
 

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