Top 3 Players of All Time

[Matthew]

One of my favorite hockey discussions is on how people think the greatest players of all time stack up against each other. Give your opinion on the 3 greatest players of all time in order and why you think so.


1. Bobby Orr, the most complete and dominant player of all time. Injuries held him back and cut his career short but still had zero flaws in his overall game. For me Number Four is miles ahead of anyone else that has ever played the game of hockey.

2. Mario Lemieux, most people tend to agree that if Bobby Orr is #1 then Wayne is #2 and vice versa. Obviously I fully disagree. When asked who was more imposing to face one on one, Mario or Wayne, most defensemen who faced both will say Le Magnifique. Again most of his career he could not practice from back injuries yet would still play the games and dominate. He also was the most dominant playoff performer in NHL history. He did not have a Dave Semenko to protect him and did not play with as much talent early in his career as Wayne did. He took a beating and still no one could stop him.

3. Wayne Gretzky, he holds pretty much any offensive hockey record. Best visions and play making ability of all time. He played like he knew exactly what every player on the ice was going to do seconds before it actually happened.

Maurice Richard, Vladislav Tretiak, and Doug Harvey would be my honorable mentions.

 

[cubsneedmiracle]

Id have the same top 3 player wise.. My order is different

Gretzky

Orr

Lemieux

 

[tbo41fan]

Thibault
Gretzky
Passmore

 

[tbo41fan]

I was jk by the way...

Gretzky
Brodeur
Orr

Brodeur will go down as the best goalie ever, he HAS to be in this discussion!

 

[Matthew]

I was jk by the way...

Gretzky
Brodeur
Orr

Brodeur will go down as the best goalie ever, he HAS to be in this discussion!

I disagree, I think Brodeur goes down as the most consistent goaltender of all time but I would not put him past Roy, Sawchuk, Dryden, Plante, or Tretiak. I guess it depends how much you value consistency over time against pure dominance.

I also would like to know how someone could not place Bobby Orr as number one? Not trying to argue but please elaborate.

 

[tbo41fan]

Brodeur---Most shutouts, long career...in my mind, the best goalie ever.

Orr---Gretzky hold almost every offensive record, he was the most dominant player in hockey history. He played a long career, with different teams, and was just all around dominant

 

[Matthew]

Brodeur---Most shutouts, long career...in my mind, the best goalie ever.

Orr---Gretzky hold almost every offensive record, he was the most dominant player in hockey history. He played a long career, with different teams, and was just all around dominant

Okay just so long as you admit you value longevity, box scores, and stat lines over the actual performances on the ice.

 

[tbo41fan]

How can you not?

You asked for BEST player, that to me is in terms of stats and records...

 

[Matthew]

How can you not?

You asked for BEST player, that to me is in terms of stats and records...

Would you also put Emmitt Smith over Jim Brown and Barry Sanders because of the records? Despite all the advantages in favor of Smith? Would you also say Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is the best all time scorer in the NBA over Michael Jordan because of the record?

 

[southern_cross_116]

I got (and I think this is in order too):

Gordie Howe
Bobby Orr
Wayne Gretzky

with honourable mentions to Maurice Richard, Ken Dryden, Mario Lemieux and Bobby Hull

Edited- forgot one ... and Mike Bossy.

 

[Everyday I'm Byfuglien]

ORR
Gretzky
Mario

And for goalies, I'd take Roy over Brodeur.

 

[tbo41fan]

Would you also put Emmitt Smith over Jim Brown and Barry Sanders because of the records? Despite all the advantages in favor of Smith? Would you also say Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is the best all time scorer in the NBA over Michael Jordan because of the record?

Basketball can't be compared because it is a solo sport...very little of scoring stats are influenced by your teammates, it is a very solo record

As for the emmitt smith thing, he holds one main record, however, how many records does Gretzky own?

Orr also played most of his career with one team, while Gretzky went to different teams and still performed at a high level..(not taking anything away from Orr) but Gretzky proved he was great in EVERY situation

 

[Matthew]

Orr also played most of his career with one team, while Gretzky went to different teams and still performed at a high level..(not taking anything away from Orr) but Gretzky proved he was great in EVERY situation

Your argument is very thin. Gretzky played with much more talent around him, Orr had to carry his teams. Gretzky had "body guards" assigned to protect him while Orr gained respect from veterans by being a very tough fighter. Orr was the most dominant player at both ends of the ice during his time, and reinvented the way his position was played. Offensive records are of course going to be held by an offensive player, Orr was the most dynamic offensive player of his time as well as a Norris Winning defensemen. Due to Gretzky being protected his entire career he never faced major injury, Orr played most of his career on one working knee.

 

[Everyday I'm Byfuglien]

The biggest thing against Gretzky is that he never won a cup outside of Edmonton.

 

[tbo41fan]

Your argument is very thin. Gretzky played with much more talent around him, Orr had to carry his teams. Gretzky had "body guards" assigned to protect him while Orr gained respect from veterans by being a very tough fighter. Orr was the most dominant player at both ends of the ice during his time, and reinvented the way his position was played. Offensive records are of course going to be held by an offensive player, Orr was the most dynamic offensive player of his time as well as a Norris Winning defensemen. Due to Gretzky being protected his entire career he never faced major injury, Orr played most of his career on one working knee.

I hear where your coming from, I guess it's just a difference of opinions...Just imo Gretzky was the greater player...maybe it's because im a younger generation hockey fan (19), but for the 12 or so years I have played and watched hockey, my opinion has been that Gretzky is the greatest hockey player ever.

As for gretzky as a coach....no.

 

[southern_cross_116]

Goalies are a bit tricker for me ... the nature of their position has probably changed the most over time than any other - and -well, take Glen Hall for example- I think he played in something like 500 straight games? It was some unreal number- and all without a mask -some of that coming from the same period that Bobby Hull was blasting slapshots... and then there are other great goalies as well - like Sawchuk, Worsley and Plante ... how do you pick just one guy? I don't think anyone playing in the last 30 years can compare to those guys directly (and admittedly it is hard enough to do this with the other positions as well).

I do think Orr defined the modern defenseman, and changed the game. Howe- well that is simple, longevity, and effectiveness... the guy started his career in 1945 I think (I think I got a color photo of the first Detroit training camp he was in where the entire team was huddled around their coach at center ice -in one of those hockey history books)... he retired like 1970 or so -then couldn't stay retired and went and played in the WHA with the New England Whalers with his 2 sons (Marty and Mark)... and was still playing on the then Hartford Whalers when thy joined the NHL in 1980. That is unreal to me.

Gretzky? Well - look, the guy defined the game in the 80's -but of course his team was much more than just him -- however - this guy nearly scored 100 goals one season --- he had 50 in the first 38 (might have been 39) the year he did that-- and there were other years where he had more assists than the next leading scorer in the league had points .... he was that good. He made hockey relevant in California, and in my opinion made it possible for teams like Anaheim and San Jose to even exist there. . . and did get the chance to compete for a Stanley Cup in Los Angeles --which is probably something no one in that town ever thought would ever happen - they were sort of the Kansas City Royals of the NHL before Gretzky arrived. (Mind you none of this is meant to take anything at all away from a guy like Messier- who is right up there for me as well -but I was going on over all league impact as well as team impact ...)


All this makes me get this terrible urge to get back in to Strat-o-matic hockey again (who knows -maybe someday soon)...

Great thread.

 

[DewsSox79]

gretzky by far. is there really a debate?

92 goals, 120 assists in 81/82. The game of hockey back than was more defensive, also there was a little rule called the 2 line pass...id like to see the numbers for the great one with these added NHL Rule Changes - An assessment of NHL rule changes for 2005-06 100 goals with these changes?

 

[southern_cross_116]

Good point Dewey ... and one other thing .... Gretzky's play style got a rule change as well - coincidental minors meant 4 on 4 hockey ( I think it does today again as well) - but at the time, because Gretzky was dominating 4 on 4's - that the league changed the rule to mean that offsetting penalties would still mean 5 on 5 hockey.

If not for a Steve Smith score in to their own empty net- the Gretzky Oilers could well have won 5 Stanley Cups in a row. As it was - it was back to back twice.

Although I am not sure that the game was more defensive back in the 80's - it seemed less defensive, and that the more defensive hockey started coming in about the time that expansion started taking hold, when you got such things like the neutral zone trap.

Those Oiler teams in the 80's lit it up like no one ever has --- they'd average well over 4 goals a game for the entire season -and it seems like they were pushing close to 400 hundred goals for (in 80 games) - but that is just based upon memory. Those were some loaded teams, and for me - nothing has ever really compared to them. What did that have like 6 guys in the Hall of Fame already from those teams? Gretzky, Kurri, Messier, Anderson, Coffey, and Fuhr? For all I know I missed one as well ... that's 5 guys out of 18 skaters dressing and their top goalie.... nearly a third of their line up... unreal.

Anyone interested in a real good book that you can probably find second hand (it is probably out of print)... is Peter Gzowksi's Game of Our Lives

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Game-Our-Lives-Peter-Gzowski/dp/1894384598/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1288658120&sr=1-1]Amazon.com: The Game of Our Lives (9781894384599): Peter Gzowski: Books[/ame]


IIRC -the author followed the team around on what happened to be the season that Gretzky blew apart that goal scoring record -and is probably the best hockey book I've ever read. (That would have been I think the season before the Oilers won their first championship - and the year the Islanders won their fourth straight by beating the Oilers (who I think iirc dropped the Hawks in the Smythe Conference finals.)

 

[Matthew]

I hear where your coming from, I guess it's just a difference of opinions...Just imo Gretzky was the greater player...maybe it's because im a younger generation hockey fan (19), but for the 12 or so years I have played and watched hockey, my opinion has been that Gretzky is the greatest hockey player ever.

As for gretzky as a coach....no.

I am 24 years old, not far off. I still am enamored by the history of the sport I have played all my life and have watched countless classic games with the great players and read about there lives. Hockey is the most fun and interesting sport to me.

I still would like to hear how people think Gretzky was better than Orr without bringing up statistics. Gretzky was a great player but look at the players he was surrounded by on the Edmonton teams. He never won a cup and his statistics dropped considerably after being traded from Edmonton. Bobby Orr did not have close to the advantages Wayne had and was a more dominant player in a tougher era of hockey. If you actually watch games of Gretzky you don't see him take over the game like many others did, he just was so smart and saw the ice so well that he anticipated every play and make the right decision with the puck every time.

Also watching many hockey films that interview people around the game who saw both players play day in and day out they all say Bobby Orr was the greatest.

 

[southern_cross_116]

Well that is going to be a tall order, Matthew, as sometimes stats are only a tie-breaker. You can point to Gretzky performing at the highest level for longer (durability is a factor), that Gretzky was on 4 championship teams- and in all fairness the Oilers only one without him. His teams were loaded, true, but -it also can be argued that like Jordan's Bulls- that Gretzky made everyone look better - have a look at Bernie Nicholls who scored 70 plus goals the year Gretzky arrived there, and other guys that never did as much as when they were without 99 (like Tomas Sandstrom I think)... Gretzky made the LA Kings -and even though they never won a championship there -they were also in the mix when before he arrived they were a non factor -the on team in that division that would almost never make the playoffs.

Now that isn't at all to discount Bobby Orr- Bobby Orr is the best defenseman ever, and he defined the position. If his knees had held up ... man, one can only wonder where the limit was. But -here you have 2 guys that defined the era that they played in. -of course that is just me.