Venting on line-ups

[clonetrooper264]

So playing few minutes and taking fewer shoots is not lessening his role. I guess what I should do is just post without evidence or thought. I can be just like you. Just type what unsubstantiated crap that comes to my head. Why even think or use reason at all.

You can play fewer minutes and still have the same role...

 

[Axl Rose]

You do realize that is not analogist at all. When you catch the ball on the perimeter with the defense rotating you have to move quickly to capitalize. When the Ball goes into the post, if you go quickly you can miss the pass out of a double team and go right into a turn over. There is a reason why almost everyone who posts in basketball wait before they start on post moves.

they don't take as long as Pau does

 

[clonetrooper264]

they don't take as long as Pau does tho

I don't care how long he takes, Pau is one of the best post up players in the last decade.

 

[houheffna]

So playing few minutes and taking fewer shoots is not lessening his role. I guess what I should do is just post without evidence or thought. I can be just like you. Just type what unsubstantiated crap that comes to my head. Why even think or use reason at all.

So, some of the dumb stuff you've posted over the years...were based on reason? Like "Tracy McGrady wasn't a great scorer" is based on reason? Seriously? If Butler goes from 39 to 34 minutes a game...he would still be expected to perform as he has all season. His role on the offensive end would still be the same.

Carmelo Anthony is averaging 3 less minutes a game and less shots per game. His role offensively hasn't changed at all.

 

[Axl Rose]

I don't care how long he takes, Pau is one of the best post up players in the last decade.

oh hes good but as ive stated before i think we need to stop trying to force it so much

especially when its not working

 

[Bear Pride]

Health is a big issue all across the board for this team. Who knows how they will play when healthy, or if there is a such thing as everyone being healthy at the same time.

Do you think that this will get better by playing the same guys heavy minutes? I mean Thib's just played Jimmy 42 minutes just before we go on a brutal 6 game road trip. :dunno: Now Jimmy gets to chase Klay Thompson around next.

 

[Bear Pride]

I´m not sure it´s about minutes played that Jimmy is scoring less and has a lower FG %.

Maybe it´s just the fact that other teams are game planing for him more now. That´s something you have to figure out as a Player and that can take some time.

And btw I don´t see that Jimmy slows our offense. That´s just wrong.
If someone is playing slow, it´s Gasol. When he get´s the ball in the post he Needs like 10 seconds before he even starts to move.

Niko, I don´t want to see him at SF that much to be honest. He should be allowed to do what he does best and that ist stretching the floor.

The thing is for me that Niko would do ok at the 3 if Thib's would substitute correctly. One of the things that Niko offers is the ability to switch from PF to SF and create matchup problems. It's Thib's responsibility to make sure these happen at the right time. This should be an advantage for the Bulls. Thib's should be able to rotate guys at the PF position and switch Niko to SF in small bursts.

 

[Bear Pride]

this drives me crazy

it stagnates the offense....he needs to make a move allot quicker because most the time when he holds the ball like that it turns into a turnover anyway

we need to do more pick and pop with Rose/Gasol that has been a deadly 1-2 punch when done

I totally agree that Rose and Pau play off each other great, but one of the reasons that the offense stagnates is that Thib's doesn't put the right guys in the lineup. Pau needs to be able to dish the ball off the post up to guys that can hit the shot.

If you don't put the right guys that can hit the 3 out ther, teams will just help on the boards and make it hard on Pau to post up. Thib's needs to have at least two 3 pt shooters in the game if he's gonna direct the offense on the post with Pau.

Having Kirk dribble the ball around for the majority of the shot clock, and then dump it to Pau is not the answer. There should be at lest one that can drive the hoop and two 3 pt shooters in the lineup if you're gonna post Pau. Having Jimmy and Kirk is NOT the answer when you are posting Pau, imo.

 

[Bear Pride]

Gasol's offense has carried this team. He's the most consistent scorer on the team.


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Like I said in the off season.... but if you don't give him the proper pieces to play off of, the opposing team will just load up the paint, as we are seeing!

 

[clonetrooper264]

oh hes good but as ive stated before i think we need to stop trying to force it so much

especially when its not working

It'll work better when we have a real shooter in the lineup next to him

 

[The Hawk]

I kind of think that Thibs doesn't really know what to do with Mirotic. He will figure it out and so will Mirotic I think. I do agree with what some have said here about questioning the line-ups that he's come up with. And my notion is a bit different also. My going in position that I know a lot of you guys disagree with is that they absolutely positively need at least one quality shooting guard. That being said, if they don't get one my line-up is this:

Starters:

Center -- Noah Put him at the high post and run a lot through him

SF -- Mirotic He's better than Dunleavy right now and forever.

PF -- Gibson He needs to be paired with scorers when in there

SG -- Butler Has lost somewhat of an identity when Rose returned

PG -- Rose Feed Noah and let him help set things up

1st subs:

C Paul Gasol Different offensive player. Should be the first option when he comes in. Put him in with:

PG Brooks Clear out the lane and let the guy penetrate. Play the in.out game with he and Gasol.

SF Dunleavy I think a group with Gasol, Brooks, and Dunleavy grouped with parts of Rose, Butler, and Gibson

2nd subs:

SG Snell Substitute for Butler

PG Hinrich Substitute for Rose

SG McDermott Gotta wean him in somehow, right?


I've read somewhere that putting Gasol on the bench would piss him off but I think that their present line-up is not balanced offensively or defensively. To me, it is either balancing the team's or result in especially offensive inefficiency. Right now the guys who are round pegs in square holes are Butler and Noah and Thibs needs to solve this, as well as giving Mirotic a real chance to help this team. He is not having a chance to do it now. He is a match-up nightmare, I think, with Butler and Rose in the back-court, Gibson and Noah in the front court. Who in the hell would account for Mirotic at SF?

 

[houheffna]

I kind of think that Thibs doesn't really know what to do with Mirotic. He will figure it out and so will Mirotic I think. I do agree with what some have said here about questioning the line-ups that he's come up with. And my notion is a bit different also. My going in position that I know a lot of you guys disagree with is that they absolutely positively need at least one quality shooting guard. That being said, if they don't get one my line-up is this:

Starters:

Center -- Noah Put him at the high post and run a lot through him

SF -- Mirotic He's better than Dunleavy right now and forever.

PF -- Gibson He needs to be paired with scorers when in there

SG -- Butler Has lost somewhat of an identity when Rose returned

PG -- Rose Feed Noah and let him help set things up

1st subs:

C Paul Gasol Different offensive player. Should be the first option when he comes in. Put him in with:

PG Brooks Clear out the lane and let the guy penetrate. Play the in.out game with he and Gasol.

SF Dunleavy I think a group with Gasol, Brooks, and Dunleavy grouped with parts of Rose, Butler, and Gibson

2nd subs:

SG Snell Substitute for Butler

PG Hinrich Substitute for Rose

SG McDermott Gotta wean him in somehow, right?


I've read somewhere that putting Gasol on the bench would piss him off but I think that their present line-up is not balanced offensively or defensively. To me, it is either balancing the team's or result in especially offensive inefficiency. Right now the guys who are round pegs in square holes are Butler and Noah and Thibs needs to solve this, as well as giving Mirotic a real chance to help this team. He is not having a chance to do it now. He is a match-up nightmare, I think, with Butler and Rose in the back-court, Gibson and Noah in the front court. Who in the hell would account for Mirotic at SF?

1. They are not going to run high post with Rose out there for 33-35mpg.
2. Mirotic can't play full time at SF. His defense is bad as it is...having him guard wings would be disastrous.
3. Why the heck do you all want to tinker with the lineup? Nobody wanted to tinker with it when the Bulls were winning. They have to be healthy.

You all are over-analyzing.

 

[The Hawk]

I do not think that the fall-off in Butler's production has anything to do with minutes. To me it is the starting players and their spacing more than anything else. Butler prospered while Rose was out. That is the simple fact of it. Now Rose is back and commanding the ball. Then you have Gasol also commanding the ball. What is left for Butler?

My thing is the over-all flow of the ball and scoring efficiency team-wide. They do not have an effective flow of the ball in my estimation in pretty much any of the line-ups that THibs puts on the floor right now. This is Thibs problem to solve and the problem probably in fucking around with player egos. Think of it in these terms:

Gasol was unhappy in LA because of his role off of the bench and he would probably be unhappy if they change what he has done thus far and put him on the bench with the Bulls.

Butler is playing right now for a max contract and has seen his production go down because he doesn't see the ball where he needs to see it in order to score, mainly due to Rose being back.

Rose is back and wants to once again be the MAN again. He is not going to take a back seat to anyone.

Noah is coming off a tremendous season and has been knocked back due to injury and a different role with this team.

Gibson is a great soldier but I think he sees the reality of things more than any other player on this team, namely players not playing together very well and is frustrated by it. Noone has sacrificed more to help this team than Gibson. But sometimes a guy can take so much and wonder, when does someone else take one for the team?

Realistically, this is really about ego and I have no idea how to solve it. But some on this team have to tamp down their own egos to get on the same page. This is a huge problem to me and in my estimation, this will be Thib's toughest nut to solve. I think that he is really up against it right now.

 

[The Hawk]

1. They are not going to run high post with Rose out there for 33-35mpg.
2. Mirotic can't play full time at SF. His defense is bad as it is...having him guard wings would be disastrous.
3. Why the heck do you all want to tinker with the lineup? Nobody wanted to tinker with it when the Bulls were winning. They have to be healthy.

You all are over-analyzing.

MY opinion is that they need BALANCE which in my opinion they do not have right now. What we watch now is for too much of the game is a bunch of individuals all looking for their own shot among Rose, Butler, Gasol, and when they are in there Brooks and Snell.
So what you see is a bunch of guys standing around watching the other guys try and go one on one with whoever is guarding them.

And.... the other teams know this. They know that the only two real selfless guys on this team are Gibson and Noah so that when one of the other guys mentioned decide it is their turn to score, they know that they can leave their own guy and double team the guy with the ball. This happens a LOT!


Also, under my scenario, Mirotic is not going to play anything close to "full-time" as a SF, especially on defense. Putting him into the starting line-up with the guys that I mentioned would balance that group offensively and still provide defensive ability over-all.

They do not have an efficient offense with a decent ball flow and haven't had one for the entire season. It is ever so obvious. It is painful to watch gasol and Noah on the court at the same time. They get in each other's way, even for rebounds. They cannot be in there at the same time.

Noah also has to be surrounded by guys who can play off of him and score while he and Gibson do the dirty work. To me it is 100% obvious that Gasol needs to come off of the bench. He is great at what he does well but he also sucks the air out of the ball a lot of the time. Let him be the first option when he is in there but having him in there with Rose and Butler for all of those minutes to a waste of talent on the court at the same time.

A second unit such as Gasol, Brooks, Dunleavy with a combination of Rose and Butler(not at the same time) along with Gibson is an excellent potential for scoring punch.

 

[Diddy1122]

1. They are not going to run high post with Rose out there for 33-35mpg.
2. Mirotic can't play full time at SF. His defense is bad as it is...having him guard wings would be disastrous.
3. Why the heck do you all want to tinker with the lineup? Nobody wanted to tinker with it when the Bulls were winning. They have to be healthy.

You all are over-analyzing.

Exactly. I've been trying to hammer this home for weeks now. And the whole "Butler has regressed" argument has nothing to do with his minutes because his "regression" just so happened to coincide with him playing SF (not his natural position), Rose increasing his offensive production (less shots for Jimmy), & teams game planning for him (doubling him in the post, where he is most effective). Switching lineups around now is a completely reactionary tactic that doesn't really solve the major issues with the team, whiich is HEALTH.

 

[czman]

Exactly. I've been trying to hammer this home for weeks now. And the whole "Butler has regressed" argument has nothing to do with his minutes because his "regression" just so happened to coincide with him playing SF (not his natural position), Rose increasing his offensive production (less shots for Jimmy), & teams game planning for him (doubling him in the post, where he is most effective). Switching lineups around now is a completely reactionary tactic that doesn't really solve the major issues with the team, whiich is HEALTH.

Not it did not. His regression started before Dunleavy got injured and he moved back to SG when Snell took over the starting lineup and has continued.

The one good thing about Butler right now is he cannot fall much further. He has to be damn close to as bad as he can get. At some point, I would guess soon, he will have an uptick and level out. I don't think it is anywhere near the 50% and 22ppg he was early in the season.

There is only so far a person can go. I just don't think he can shoot below 40% for the rest of the season.

 

[Raskolnikov]

I think rose butler dunleavy gasol Noah should start, with a quick move of dunleavy and Noah out for mirotic and Gibson. Then switch in brooks for mirotic and Noah for gasol. Then bring in mirotic and gasol for rose and Gibson. With captain Kirk entering for butler. When rose comes back in with butler for mirotic and Kirk, brooks got some extra burn. Then duleavy should have been in for mirotic much of that rime, sprinkle with snell and vetoingoire

 

[The Hawk]

Exactly. I've been trying to hammer this home for weeks now. And the whole "Butler has regressed" argument has nothing to do with his minutes because his "regression" just so happened to coincide with him playing SF (not his natural position), Rose increasing his offensive production (less shots for Jimmy), & teams game planning for him (doubling him in the post, where he is most effective). Switching lineups around now is a completely reactionary tactic that doesn't really solve the major issues with the team, whiich is HEALTH.

I just have to disagree. It is way more than health. This team has not had a single cohesive line-up the entire season which blends offensive and defensive players together. They do not have anykind of defined system that they play in. A team can have injuries and still blend players in and out. These are called substitutions and all teams do that irregardless of the system employed.

 

[The Hawk]

Was I not clear about Noah? He hasn't played well since the playoff series last year, so last year doesn't mean shit. That's history, time to focus ln the present. He's been awful for whatever reason, and the Bulls need less of him and Gasol getting murdered in the paint and no one fighting on the offensive glass. Assists from Noah don't mean shit right now. It looks cool to fans, but I'll take my assists from Rose, Brooks and Gasol who is actually a scoring threat from the outside. Let Noah grab some rebounds and play some damn defense for a change. He can still pass from the post.


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First of all, you aren't going to get assists from Rose, Brooks, and Gasol. All three of them are scorers not assist guys. That is one of the main reasons why the Bulls offense is not very efficient. As for Noah, he has been hurt and is recovering. Sure he isn't the player near what he was last year but he still is the best assist guy that they have on the team and does make everyone around him better.

 

[The Hawk]

Lol at some of this stuff.

Gasol is NOT coming off the bench, his role was preordained prior to his signing, plus he's an allstar....and you don't reduce the role of an offensive player who is THE LEADING SCORER ON THE DAMN TEAM!

Who "preordained" anything. As for being an all-star, so what? Last I heard, Noah has been an all-star, all defense 1st team and 1st team all NBA. Do they not have two other all-stars in Butler and Rose along with a 6th man of the year guy in Gibson? Are we somehow going to annoint Gasol as somekind of a saint or untouchable? **** that. Doing that hamstrings a team. Not making line-up changes when necessary to balance a team out is dumb.