Jordan is the GOAT, but thats not really apples to apples. LBJ and Jordan game is totally different. Kobe and MJ are mirror images. LBJ game is to be compared to Magic and he is better than Magic.
Kobe and MJ were scoring assassins. Completely cold blooded in their approach to putting the ball in the basket and probably went into some games wanting to take every shot. They were so good in one specific area that it was in the team's best interest to let them go wild and build around them.
Magic and LBJ could be dominant on that side, but they were more generalists/Generals. They were focused on using teammates matchups and getting the most out of them.
I'm not saying one way is better than the other. I played a lot of basketball growing up. To be clear I never at the NBA/NCAA level, but I know what kind of teammate I preferred to play with. The way I see it is if I ever found myself playing with Jordan in his prime I'd be scared shitless of making a mistake and just look to get the ball into his hands. If the same situation happened with James I could see him trying to get me going with some easy baskets/open looks.
Serial floppers should not be rewarded as much as LeBron has been in his career. If you're that good, you don't need to manipulate your status and the integrity of the rules to make yourself better. Mark my words, a day will come where people see how much flopping has ruined the NBA, and many star players will be considered products of a bad era. The same way Julius Erving's legacy is the victim of a broken league, when he is a true marvel of the game that has to be inserted into the topic, not automatic as it would have been otherwise.
For me, LeBron is #1. With this board I'll try to cater to LJ vs. MJ just because that's the real conversation we are having. Anyway, here's my thoughts:
Won a championship with 3 different teams - For me this is pretty big. That's 3 different coaches, groups of players and different situations. There are questions about MJ about if he could have won without Phil Jackson or Scottie Pippen since it never happened. With LeBron that question has been answered in 3 separate ways.
Committed to the fans - He's against load management (Leonard) and won't leave the sport for personal reasons (Jordan). He's spoken in great detail about the importance of the fans and his actions back those words.
Multi stat category guy - I like players that hit all the stat columns. I just feel they have a larger contribution to the outcome. He's got 28 playoff triple doubles. That's only second to Magic (30) and then the next closest is Jason Kidd at 11. Just to compare, MJ had 2 playoff triple doubles throughout his career.
Off field contributions - He's been one of those players who have taken large steps to be an advocate of social change. Many can say MJ was in a different era where he didn't have a place. I'd argue that same group comments that LeBron is stepping outside of his lane when he brings up social issues. IMHO sport is an escape from reality, but if sport can make society better, then it has an obligation to do so. That's where James has used his platform like no basketball player before him.
For those that come after me for my 'anti-MJ' take:
Lakers forward LeBron James, questioned again about workload, said he felt an obligation to himself, his team and the kids who come to see him play.
www.latimes.com
LeBron has done a lot when it comes to the fans. He had a horrible relationship with Dan Gilbert, but put that to aside to come back to Cleveland and win one for the city. In contrast, when MJ left because of his feud with management was covered in his docuseries. When he left, he was gone for good.
For your stats, yes LeBron only played 82 games once. You are right and that's true. When I talk load management I'm focusing on Leonard, who doesn't play more than 2 times a week before the playoffs. That means the last two seasons he ends up playing 60 (of a possible 82) and 57 (of a possible 72 games) games throughout the season. James has played less than 72 games in 4 of his 17 seasons and some of those years were for legit injuries.
If you just want to talk about who's logged more minutes in the NBA let's look at total games:
LeBron has played in 1525 NBA games (1265 regular season + 260 playoff)
Jordan has played in 1251 NBA games (1072 regular season + 179 playoff)
So LeBron played in 274 more games or just over 2 full seasons with playoffs of NBA basketball then Michael Jordan AND he's got another 2-5 years left in him.
BTW, I get the Jordan love. I grew up wearing a #23 Bulls jersey as they beat Magic's Lakers for their first title. He was everything that is basketball and I remember having the same arguments with my uncles about him, at the time, not being better than Karim or Magic. It's the exact same conversation people are having now. Your memories of the past player breaking barriers while you watched it live are so good that it's extremely difficult to logically compare them without getting defensive. Here's how I compare the two:
Ball handling - Jordan = James
Going to basket - Jordan = James
Mid range shot - Jordan > James
3 pt shot - Jordan < James (He's got a higher career % and made way more)
Free throws - Jordan > James
Passing - Jordan < James (the stats are what they are)
Rebounding - Jordan < James (Stats are what they are)
Individual defense - Jordan < James (Jordan was great, but didn't guard 1-5 like LeBron does and after Pippen established himself Jordan often took the lesser threat)
Team defense - Jordan = James
Killer instinct/clutch - Jordan > James
Ability to make other better - Jordan < James (based on the 3 championships with different coaches/players)
So when I do the math it's 3 that are equal, 3 for Jordan and 5 for James. You can argue the specific categories and add a few, but I'm trying to be objective. It's not like I broke rebounding into offensive and defensive just to give LeBron a bump or added something like blocked shots.
Either way, it's honestly a preference call. I prefer a more complete contributor over someone that might prefer a pure scorer. I'm not disrespecting that scorer nature and even added 'killer instinct' to give Jordan some love there. It's just my preference to have LeBron over MJ.
Obviously Jordan, but that's what he was good at. He was an assassin who lived for that opportunity. If this was a war he would be holding the biggest gun mowing down the enemy with a smile. James is more of a general, so just different ways of accomplishing the same goal.
Let's ask another question. Pick one player in their prime to go to any team in the NBA to win a championship. Who has a better chance with an unknown coach, roster and still having to add pieces of accomplishing that goal?
Serial floppers should not be rewarded as much as LeBron has been in his career. If you're that good, you don't need to manipulate your status and the integrity of the rules to make yourself better. Mark my words, a day will come where people see how much flopping has ruined the NBA, and many star players will be considered products of a bad era. The same way Julius Erving's legacy is the victim of a broken league, when he is a true marvel of the game that has to be inserted into the topic, not automatic as it would have been otherwise.
That's just the evolution of the game. Basketball used to be a sport where no one would jump for pure risk of being undercut. It was the Detroit Bad Boys X10. Guys like Jordan or James would not have succeeded in that world the same way the great players of that era wouldn't fit into today's game.
I first saw flopping in soccer and it made sense. It would give you such an advantage to 'act up' a potential foul that it's simply became part of the game. It's now been mapped over to almost all sports. Let's take James Hardin as an example. His ability to draw a foul is an asset for his team. He doesn't care if you like or dislike it. He knows it helps his team win, so he's doing it with or without your approval.
Trying to compare eras well all know stars get calls that other players didn't Jordan would regularly talk to or talk down refs that missed calls he felt should have been called especially when he was older (comparable to James today). I also look at James as part GM, part coach and part player. He does some of the antics you'd see from a coach to get a refs attention, which driver haters crazy, but in his mind he's just trying to do all he can to win. Kind of like Jordan's gambling, it's a 'competition problem'...
Lakers forward LeBron James, questioned again about workload, said he felt an obligation to himself, his team and the kids who come to see him play.
www.latimes.com
LeBron has done a lot when it comes to the fans. He had a horrible relationship with Dan Gilbert, but put that to aside to come back to Cleveland and win one for the city. In contrast, when MJ left because of his feud with management was covered in his docuseries. When he left, he was gone for good.
For your stats, yes LeBron only played 82 games once. You are right and that's true. When I talk load management I'm focusing on Leonard, who doesn't play more than 2 times a week before the playoffs. That means the last two seasons he ends up playing 60 (of a possible 82) and 57 (of a possible 72 games) games throughout the season. James has played less than 72 games in 4 of his 17 seasons and some of those years were for legit injuries.
If you just want to talk about who's logged more minutes in the NBA let's look at total games:
LeBron has played in 1525 NBA games (1265 regular season + 260 playoff)
Jordan has played in 1251 NBA games (1072 regular season + 179 playoff)
So LeBron played in 274 more games or just over 2 full seasons with playoffs of NBA basketball then Michael Jordan AND he's got another 2-5 years left in him.
BTW, I get the Jordan love. I grew up wearing a #23 Bulls jersey as they beat Magic's Lakers for their first title. He was everything that is basketball and I remember having the same arguments with my uncles about him, at the time, not being better than Karim or Magic. It's the exact same conversation people are having now. Your memories of the past player breaking barriers while you watched it live are so good that it's extremely difficult to logically compare them without getting defensive. Here's how I compare the two:
Ball handling - Jordan = James
Going to basket - Jordan = James
Mid range shot - Jordan > James
3 pt shot - Jordan < James (He's got a higher career % and made way more)
Free throws - Jordan > James
Passing - Jordan < James (the stats are what they are)
Rebounding - Jordan < James (Stats are what they are)
Individual defense - Jordan < James (Jordan was great, but didn't guard 1-5 like LeBron does and after Pippen established himself Jordan often took the lesser threat)
Team defense - Jordan = James
Killer instinct/clutch - Jordan > James
Ability to make other better - Jordan < James (based on the 3 championships with different coaches/players)
So when I do the math it's 3 that are equal, 3 for Jordan and 5 for James. You can argue the specific categories and add a few, but I'm trying to be objective. It's not like I broke rebounding into offensive and defensive just to give LeBron a bump or added something like blocked shots.
Either way, it's honestly a preference call. I prefer a more complete contributor over someone that might prefer a pure scorer. I'm not disrespecting that scorer nature and even added 'killer instinct' to give Jordan some love there. It's just my preference to have LeBron over MJ.
If Jordan came from High School and spaced his games out maybe he'd last longer? Lebron is a HOF legend. But there's no comparison in opinion. And that is full bias on my part.
I'd argue Kobe vs MJ any day over MJ over Lebron and as other posters have pointed out, it's a more fairerererer comparison.
And for the record. DIfferent eras too. So I'd take Magic over LBJ- Just more focused and tougher. I don't relate to this era of basketball. I think they are a bunch of pussies. And my father probably thinks I am a pussy and his father etc etc
Lakers forward LeBron James, questioned again about workload, said he felt an obligation to himself, his team and the kids who come to see him play.
www.latimes.com
LeBron has done a lot when it comes to the fans. He had a horrible relationship with Dan Gilbert, but put that to aside to come back to Cleveland and win one for the city. In contrast, when MJ left because of his feud with management was covered in his docuseries. When he left, he was gone for good.
For your stats, yes LeBron only played 82 games once. You are right and that's true. When I talk load management I'm focusing on Leonard, who doesn't play more than 2 times a week before the playoffs. That means the last two seasons he ends up playing 60 (of a possible 82) and 57 (of a possible 72 games) games throughout the season. James has played less than 72 games in 4 of his 17 seasons and some of those years were for legit injuries.
If you just want to talk about who's logged more minutes in the NBA let's look at total games:
LeBron has played in 1525 NBA games (1265 regular season + 260 playoff)
Jordan has played in 1251 NBA games (1072 regular season + 179 playoff)
So LeBron played in 274 more games or just over 2 full seasons with playoffs of NBA basketball then Michael Jordan AND he's got another 2-5 years left in him.
BTW, I get the Jordan love. I grew up wearing a #23 Bulls jersey as they beat Magic's Lakers for their first title. He was everything that is basketball and I remember having the same arguments with my uncles about him, at the time, not being better than Karim or Magic. It's the exact same conversation people are having now. Your memories of the past player breaking barriers while you watched it live are so good that it's extremely difficult to logically compare them without getting defensive. Here's how I compare the two:
Ball handling - Jordan = James
Going to basket - Jordan = James
Mid range shot - Jordan > James
3 pt shot - Jordan < James (He's got a higher career % and made way more)
Free throws - Jordan > James
Passing - Jordan < James (the stats are what they are)
Rebounding - Jordan < James (Stats are what they are)
Individual defense - Jordan < James (Jordan was great, but didn't guard 1-5 like LeBron does and after Pippen established himself Jordan often took the lesser threat)
Team defense - Jordan = James
Killer instinct/clutch - Jordan > James
Ability to make other better - Jordan < James (based on the 3 championships with different coaches/players)
So when I do the math it's 3 that are equal, 3 for Jordan and 5 for James. You can argue the specific categories and add a few, but I'm trying to be objective. It's not like I broke rebounding into offensive and defensive just to give LeBron a bump or added something like blocked shots.
Either way, it's honestly a preference call. I prefer a more complete contributor over someone that might prefer a pure scorer. I'm not disrespecting that scorer nature and even added 'killer instinct' to give Jordan some love there. It's just my preference to have LeBron over MJ.
lol no kidding lebron has played more games. He’s played more seasons. i simply pointed out the fact that you were making a big deal about lebron always showing up and playing...and I pointed out that’s simply not true. Go on and make excuses all you want...lebron did the load management thing just like Leonard has.
The Los Angeles Lakers announced star LeBron James will miss Wednesday's game against the Utah Jazz as part of his load management. This will be another missed game in a season full of them for the King...
Los Angeles Lakers star LeBron James isn't in favor of load management. Did he make hypocritical comments about the hot-topic subject?
lakeshowlife.com
I could go on and on with instances of lebron taking the load management route. It’s funny you critique leonard for it super hard, yet give lebron GOAT status despite it.
I'd say LeBron is only second to Jordan, and I'd say this before this latest ship.. Jordan is just another level, something that LeBron could never accomplish. I think LeBron is actually more talented than Jordan was, LeBron just has never wanted it as much as Jordan did, hence why Jordan went 6-0 in the Finals, and LeBron has lost a lot of Finals.
Lakers forward LeBron James, questioned again about workload, said he felt an obligation to himself, his team and the kids who come to see him play.
www.latimes.com
Passing - Jordan < James (the stats are what they are)
Rebounding - Jordan < James (Stats are what they are)
Individual defense - Jordan < James (Jordan was great, but didn't guard 1-5 like LeBron does and after Pippen established himself Jordan often took the lesser threat)
Ability to make other better - Jordan < James (based on the 3 championships with different coaches/players)
Regarding passing and rebounding - You can't simply look at the stats and say that, become James's numbers are greater, he must be better. That isn't true.
Let's talk rebounding first. LBJ is bigger and taller than MJ, so he SHOULD have more rebounds than MJ. But over their entire careers, LBJ averages just 1 rebound more than MJ. Dirk, as an example, averaged more rebounds per game than MJ, but Dirk was considered a poor rebounder for his position/height, while MJ was considered a great rebounder for his.
Passing- Similar point as above. LBJ averages more assists because he plays the role of a PG and passes more than MJ. Passing more leads to more assists, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's a better passer than MJ. Watch the video below and tell me that, skill-wise, MJ wasn't as good or even better than LBJ when it came to passing the basketball. And when MJ *was* asked to pass the ball, he was more than capable of averaging many APG.
Individual Defense - Just because LBJ was able to guard more positions doesn't mean he's the better defender. More versatile? Sure. Better? Not necessarily. MJ is considered one of the best perimeter defenders of all-time. He played lockdown D with the best of them. Plus, LBJ was only able to guard all 5 positions because the league has gotten smaller. There's no way in hell LBJ would have ever guarded Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, etc.
Ability to make those around him better - James left situations to go to places with players that would help him, not the other way around. Not saying he didn't make those around him better, but to try proving that point by saying he won with 3 teams (and the way he actually won with those teams) is actually an argument against him. Plus, if those who played with him were truly made better, why did they collapse when he left? When MJ retired the first time, the team still played great, and they all credit MJ for making them better, both physically and mentally. And it showed. so MJ literally made guys around him better... LBJ would make playoff runs with bad players around him (while they still looked bad) and when he left, they were still bad.
I'd say LeBron is only second to Jordan, and I'd say this before this latest ship.. Jordan is just another level, something that LeBron could never accomplish. I think LeBron is actually more talented than Jordan was, LeBron just has never wanted it as much as Jordan did, hence why Jordan went 6-0 in the Finals, and LeBron has lost a lot of Finals.
I agree on all points except Lebron being more talented. A lot of people forget just how athletic Jordan was - 4.4 (some put him at 4.3 at UNC) forty yard dash and 48 inch vertical. His first step quickness was simply a thing to behold and his lift off the ground was super quick (quick hopps!) - thus, the nickname, "The Black Cat" - to go along with his "cat quick" reflexes. There was also the report about him going to an Air Force training academy just to visit the troops (I think it was his second year in the league) and while there he participated in some kind of hand eye coordination simulation that they use to train pilots, and Jordan scored off the charts. They had never seen anything like it. The Last Dance primarily focused upon his "killer will" and drive... but they truly could have done a whole different series on just how athletically talented he truly was.
The guy could master ANYTHING on the court that he set his mind to mastering. Had the 3 point shot been the big thing when he was coming up, he would have been a dead eye from that distance. If he has asked to master the assist game, he would have put up around 10 assists per game. There was nothing that he could not do if he set his mind to doing it. Add in the fact that he was a much better defender than Lebron (Jordan even won Defensive Player of the Year - something Lebron has never done) and there is literally nothing the man could not do.
He is the unquestioned GOAT in my mind... and its really not that close.
Regarding passing and rebounding - You can't simply look at the stats and say that, become James's numbers are greater, he must be better. That isn't true.
Let's talk rebounding first. LBJ is bigger and taller than MJ, so he SHOULD have more rebounds than MJ. But over their entire careers, LBJ averages just 1 rebound more than MJ. Dirk, as an example, averaged more rebounds per game than MJ, but Dirk was considered a poor rebounder for his position/height, while MJ was considered a great rebounder for his.
Passing- Similar point as above. LBJ averages more assists because he plays the role of a PG and passes more than MJ. Passing more leads to more assists, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's a better passer than MJ. Watch the video below and tell me that, skill-wise, MJ wasn't as good or even better than LBJ when it came to passing the basketball. And when MJ *was* asked to pass the ball, he was more than capable of averaging many APG.
Individual Defense - Just because LBJ was able to guard more positions doesn't mean he's the better defender. More versatile? Sure. Better? Not necessarily. MJ is considered one of the best perimeter defenders of all-time. He played lockdown D with the best of them. Plus, LBJ was only able to guard all 5 positions because the league has gotten smaller. There's no way in hell LBJ would have ever guarded Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, etc.
Ability to make those around him better - James left situations to go to places with players that would help him, not the other way around. Not saying he didn't make those around him better, but to try proving that point by saying he won with 3 teams (and the way he actually won with those teams) is actually an argument against him. Plus, if those who played with him were truly made better, why did they collapse when he left? When MJ retired the first time, the team still played great, and they all credit MJ for making them better, both physically and mentally. And it showed. so MJ literally made guys around him better... LBJ would make playoff runs with bad players around him (while they still looked bad) and when he left, they were still bad.
I don't get your arguments. For rebounding both Charles Barkley (6'5) and Dennis Rodman (6'8) lead the league in rebounding, so desire to get the ball does factor in. Then you posted a highlight video of MJ's passes? All players look good in highlights and I'm sure LeBron has a pretty video as well. As for guarding a center, LeBron's done that too. Sure it's not Shaq, but he's done it.
The stats are what they are. Stockton is the all time assist and steals leader, Wilt is the all time rebounder, Kareem is the all time scorer and Olajuwon was the all time shot blocker. You can make a fanboi argument that pretends MJ's lower numbers are actually worth more, but I'm not hearing it. It disrespects what certain players actually accomplished.
As for the final point about me respecting the 3 team championship it's just a fact. Different coaches and players, who often were not good before he came there. Look at Miami and Cleveland before and after LeBron. Massive gap difference. He's still a Laker and year 1 he was injured, but you'll probably see a similar talent drain. When looking at MJ's first retirement they went from a 57 win team to a 55 win team, so almost no difference.
Anyway, we won't agree. I'll provide stats and you'll be talking about how Jordan made you feel.
I agree on all points except Lebron being more talented. A lot of people forget just how athletic Jordan was - 4.4 (some put him at 4.3 at UNC) forty yard dash and 48 inch vertical. His first step quickness was simply a thing to behold and his lift off the ground was super quick (quick hopps!) - thus, the nickname, "The Black Cat" - to go along with his "cat quick" reflexes. There was also the report about him going to an Air Force training academy just to visit the troops (I think it was his second year in the league) and while there he participated in some kind of hand eye coordination simulation that they use to train pilots, and Jordan scored off the charts. They had never seen anything like it. The Last Dance primarily focused upon his "killer will" and drive... but they truly could have done a whole different series on just how athletically talented he truly was.
The guy could master ANYTHING on the court that he set his mind to mastering. Had the 3 point shot been the big thing when he was coming up, he would have been a dead eye from that distance. If he has asked to master the assist game, he would have put up around 10 assists per game. There was nothing that he could not do if he set his mind to doing it. Add in the fact that he was a much better defender than Lebron (Jordan even won Defensive Player of the Year - something Lebron has never done) and there is literally nothing the man could not do.
He is the unquestioned GOAT in my mind... and its really not that close.
I agree on all points except Lebron being more talented. A lot of people forget just how athletic Jordan was - 4.4 (some put him at 4.3 at UNC) forty yard dash and 48 inch vertical. His first step quickness was simply a thing to behold and his lift off the ground was super quick (quick hopps!) - thus, the nickname, "The Black Cat" - to go along with his "cat quick" reflexes. There was also the report about him going to an Air Force training academy just to visit the troops (I think it was his second year in the league) and while there he participated in some kind of hand eye coordination simulation that they use to train pilots, and Jordan scored off the charts. They had never seen anything like it. The Last Dance primarily focused upon his "killer will" and drive... but they truly could have done a whole different series on just how athletically talented he truly was.
The guy could master ANYTHING on the court that he set his mind to mastering. Had the 3 point shot been the big thing when he was coming up, he would have been a dead eye from that distance. If he has asked to master the assist game, he would have put up around 10 assists per game. There was nothing that he could not do if he set his mind to doing it. Add in the fact that he was a much better defender than Lebron (Jordan even won Defensive Player of the Year - something Lebron has never done) and there is literally nothing the man could not do.
He is the unquestioned GOAT in my mind... and its really not that close.
RE: Athlete - Jordan's quickness vs LeBron's pure size. No one is better, it's all how it's used.
RE: 'Rumors' - If you are including things that are only rumors then don't forget the rumors of his dad's death being linked to gambling debts and him dodging a suspension by playing baseball. Rumors work both ways.
RE: Last Dance - it was co-produced by his company. It's his side of the story. They even tried to spin his gambling problem as a 'competition problem'. I'd add the backlash form the Kraus family, Horace Grant and Pip would suggest there's more to the story than what the Last Dance told us.
RE: "The guy could master ANYTHING on the court that he set his mind to mastering" - Okay. He didn't. He was the best scorer of his era, but in many categories he was just okay. If your argument is that he could have been better if he wanted too, then maybe he never wanted to be a complete player?
RE: "much better defender" - I watched them both and love defense. They are both excellent on and off ball defenders. LeBron took the harder matchups whereas Jordan saved his energy for the offensive side of the ball and let Scottie shine there. Again, this is just what happened, not what could have happened if Jordan wanted it differently...
