Who should be on the Sox banner?

[Got teeth? Keith doesn't.]

I think in the grand scheme of the league Nellie Fox is not legendary, but he played a very large part in one of the more important Sox teams all of time and thus is overrated or endeared more than he probably deserves but I don't get too worked up over it.

50-60 years down the line, I'm sure Joe Crede will be in this same boat. No, Crede was not good but he'll likely be overrated by every single Sox fan, but people will look back with bias eyes and say "well he was a key part of their title team, etc" Crede won't reach HOF status like Nellie Fox did but I see him in a similar light.

Crede was barely hyped during his tenure here, why would he be 50 to 60 years from now?

 

[FedEx227]

I don't think that's true. Joe Crede was in my mind criminally overrated as a member of the White Sox. He was pretty putrid as a hitter.

 

[cubsneedmiracle]

You guys are kinda...

heated sometimes apparently..

Its just about a banner.

Aaand yes Crede has always been wayyyyyyyyy overrated.

 

[Lefty]

Average bat+premium defense=star player,

You're a moron. You cannot unequivocally say that an average bat and premium defense makes for a star player. In fact, there were 9 seasons in which his stellar defense was completely neutralized by his average hitting abilities. I'm not sure how good you are at math, but that's a little under half of his career.

Was he a very, very good player? Yes, but he was hardly "legendary", in fact nearly half of his game was little more than average.

and for someone who did it for as long as he did,

We've had this discussion at least 3 times before you nimrod, and every single time I have pointed out to you that at least 25% of his career (and as much as 35% of it) was spent below the league-average threshold.

to me that is enough to warrant legendary status within a franchises history.

Yeah, because you're a dope, nothing more.

 

[Lefty]

More on your "legendary player" math:

Let's imagine the rating of "below average" to "legendary" players to lie on a spectrum, with "below average" career players on the far left, "average" players in the middle and "legendary" players on the far right:

l-----------------------------------------------------l------------------------------------------------l

Okay? That's our "Spectrum of Player Worth". And while technically any player residing to the left of "Average" could be considered "below average", let's assume that there is a range of acceptable performance for each moniker rather than a set above-or-below point. Now, let's take the respective aspects of Fox's game--offense and defense--and put them on the spectrum (his offense, as already pointed out multiple times, is decidedly average and will lie directly above the "average" point, and his defense, decidedly "legendary" will lie directly above the "legendary" point on the spectrum).

And for now, let's assume that a player's worth is equal parts individual offense and defense. That would make Fox's "Total Worth" lie exactly half-way between his offensive and defensive points on the spectrum


l-----------------------------------------------------l-------------------------l----------------------l

Looking at this, Fox is assuredly more than just an "average" MLB player, however his total worth isn't exactly close to what could conceivably be considered legendary, and that's assuming that total worth is equal parts individual offense and defense.

Realistically, Fox's total worth lies farther away from "legendary" than previously shown because while team defense might be closer in relative worth to team offense, it would be a bit naive to think that individual defense is on-par (in terms of the effects each individual phase has on winning] with individual offense.

Again, there is no doubt that Fox was a very good player, but to say that his superb defensive skills rescued his very average offensive skills and propelled him to "legendary" status as an overall player is, at best, overly simplistic.

 

[Lefty]

And yes, I'm aware that his average bat still added value in the form of runs to his team, and that this is view of total worth is simplistic itself, but the truth is we aren't really talking about objective value added at this point, but rather how those objective values manifest in subjective ratings like "legendary".

 

[BigP50]

Crede was a key part to that WS team though.

 

[Lefty]

Yes, but as a player he was (and still is, to an extent) vastly overrated by many Sox fans. Aaron Rownad is another one.

 

[BigP50]

Rowand was a guy that always gave 110% and that's why I loved him.

 

[FedEx227]

That's what I mean though, you guys don't think 50-60 years down the line these guys will get more and more overrated?

I was happy to have Rowand and Crede on the WS team and they were no doubt vital parts, but the numbers/quantitative part in me allows me to go back and really realize they weren't great players. People who aren't so much in that boat as likely going to overstate certain guys hustle, defense, etc. Not that it's a bad thing, I'm just saying a lot of that has probably happened with Nellie Fox.

These guys play vital roles on legendary teams it's natural to hold them to a higher regard. It's natural to some to maybe think that Joe Crede was better than Robin Ventura, when that's not even remotely the case. You have a harder time remembering all the good that Ventura did, when the first thing you think of with Crede is flashing leather the entire year of 2005, the walkoff against Cleveland, etc.

Of course I love Crede and Rowand was one of my favorite players on that 2005 team, but still as time has gone on instead of putting them in higher regard, I've been able to separate them and really look at how they were as individual players.

I'm not saying either way is right or wrong or whatever, I'm just saying where I stand with the matter.

 

[BigP50]

Crede was a pop up machine and was so slow!

 

[Lefty]

Rowand was a guy that always gave 110% and that's why I loved him.

What Aaron Rowand "giving it his all" got him in 2005: .270/.329/.407, 93 OPS+

 

[BigP50]

Mainly on defense, but running the base paths too.

 

[Rush]

You faggots didn't have a show tonight? You don't even watch Hockey lol

 

[BigP50]

lol, they prolly figured no one would listen.

 

[Rush]

I remember they did a show on a night of a Bulls playoff game I think.

 

[BigP50]

but we knew nothing would happen with that lol.

 

[Lefty]

You faggots didn't have a show tonight? You don't even watch Hockey lol

I think we have both stated, multiple times, in fact, that we are making our own concerted efforts to become hockey fans in some regard.