2013-14 NHL Season Discussion

[LordKOTL]

I'm not saying fighting lessens or worsens the game so much--except for the cheap "staged" fights.  Muggings like Emery on Holtby or the old Walker on Jovo are very entertaining IMHO.  And if I'm a knuckle-dragging neaderthal for thinking as such, fine.  I'd rather be a knuckle-dragging neaderthal than a complete peacenik pantywaist member of the Kumbaya coalition.</p>


 </p>


But ultimately in the league in the *right now* I don't think fighting itself is the must-solve issue--it's the cheapshot and how the league responds to them.  Right now, fighting usually doesn't happen in the cash-cow eschelon of players, and thus, it doesn't really affect them.  However, cheapshotting spans the entire gamut of players and the problem is discipline is completely out of whack and uneven.  Whether it's Kessel or Kruger pretending to be the Star Wars kid, the penalty should be the same.  Whether it's Ovechkin or Oduya going Knee-on-knee, the punishment should be the same.  Whether it's Hutton or Halischuck Boarding a guy, the punishment should be the same and all punishments need to be severe.</p>


 </p>


The league needs to give the players reason to not cheapshot, and reason to not engage in "frontier justice" as it were.  Right now they're failing more miserably than Keeanu Reeves trying to do shakespeare.</p>

 

[Variable]

Like I said it really doesn't matter to me when they change their attidude about fighting, it would be smart to be changing them at the same time because it goes hand in hand. But whether it's done first or last doesn't matter as much that they just  do it. Because it's part of the whole problem with the dirty hits/cheap shots, no matter how many times people try to seperate the two. Changing their view on fighting means they've also changed their view on those type of hits as well. It means they no longer buy into their bullshit that fighting is what can help that problem and that instead it's only THEM, the league front office, that has to play enforcer. It's an important realization to have because, like it or not, these two issues are linked because of that circular logic of "We need a guy like Colton Orr to protect us from a guy like Colton Orr".</p>


 </p>


And Trev, please just answer me this. How can you possibly uphold the idea that fighting is what deters players when in years past when there was no instigator rule and everyone was "accoutable" things were even worse. How do you still believe that?</p>

 

[Variable]

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Tony DeFrancesco" data-cid="213327" data-time="1383829308">
<div>


I don't think fighting should ever be made illegal.</p>


 </p>


There is a time and place, but most of the time it's unnecessary. </p>


 </p>


IE: Jonathan Toews vs Joe Thornton.</p>


 </p>


I don't see anything wrong with that one.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>


 </p>


Well illegal is the wrong word, since it already is against the rules. Even ban is the wrong word. It's just an easier way to say it, but the wrong term to use.</p>


 </p>


You can say you banned fighting, but If players really, really want to start a fight, they're going to do it.  In every sport. The word "banned" isn't going to stop them. It's just hockey is the only one that allows them to do so without supplemental discipline and says it's actively part of the game. That's where they have to change. Instead of just giving out the 5 minute major, you give a match penalty. Then you start giving out suspensions that drive up in length the more fights the players get into. That's where it ends. You need them to put their career at stake for them to understand.</p>

 

[Shantz My Pants]

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Variable" data-cid="213368" data-time="1383855806">


Like I said it really doesn't matter to me when they change their attidude about fighting, it would be smart to be changing them at the same time because it goes hand in hand. But whether it's done first or last doesn't matter as much that they just do it. Because it's part of the whole problem with the dirty hits/cheap shots, no matter how many times people try to seperate the two. Changing their view on fighting means they've also changed their view on those type of hits as well. It means they no longer buy into their bullshit that fighting is what can help that problem and that instead it's only THEM, the league front office, that has to play enforcer. It's an important realization to have because, like it or not, these two issues are linked because of that circular logic of "We need a guy like Colton Orr to protect us from a guy like Colton Orr".


And Trev, please just answer me this. How can you possibly uphold the idea that fighting is what deters players when in years past when there was no instigator rule and everyone was "accoutable" things were even worse. How do you still believe that?</p></blockquote>


What makes back then "worse"? The fact that fights were a more common occurrence?


Look at the style of play the 70s and 80s entailed. The game back then was much slower and much more physical. Guys coming into the league were drafted based on height and power, not puck possession and two way play as you see today. Everyone wanted the next Lindros or Messier. Once Europeans started to come over, the Cold War ended, and European tactics started getting integrated slowly into the way the game is played.


Now? The game isn't about so much power or intimidation. It's more based around skill and speed. Though, that doesn't mean physical play is gone; if anything it's there just as much as before.


Dirty acts happen every year in all sports, but hockey due to it's more physical and "violent" style gets casted under a microscope more than the others. I wouldn't say there was more cheap play back then as I'm seeing just as much now if not worse. Back then, guys were more accountable and there was more respect. Sure, there were a few bad eggs (Cicceralli, Marchment, Domi, Samulesson) but you have just as many if not more now (Kaleta, Torres, Cooke). At least back then fights kept guys a bit more honest, maybe made them think twice. Now, if you run a guy or cross the line you don't have to answer the consequences for your actions. Back then, guys like Probert, Domi, McSorley, Grimson, Peluso wouldn't go after you for no reason unless you gave them one. Knowing that if you ran a guy and you probably would be challenged to a fight struck a bit of fear into going over the line. Now, guys don't have to answer to anyone for their actions, but instead get to turtle and force the other team to take a penalty. There is no justice or honor in that and if they ban fighting, be prepared for even more lack of respect, if it can even get that far.

 

[Shantz My Pants]

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Variable" data-cid="213368" data-time="1383855806">


Like I said it really doesn't matter to me when they change their attidude about fighting, it would be smart to be changing them at the same time because it goes hand in hand. But whether it's done first or last doesn't matter as much that they just do it. Because it's part of the whole problem with the dirty hits/cheap shots, no matter how many times people try to seperate the two. Changing their view on fighting means they've also changed their view on those type of hits as well. It means they no longer buy into their bullshit that fighting is what can help that problem and that instead it's only THEM, the league front office, that has to play enforcer. It's an important realization to have because, like it or not, these two issues are linked because of that circular logic of "We need a guy like Colton Orr to protect us from a guy like Colton Orr".


And Trev, please just answer me this. How can you possibly uphold the idea that fighting is what deters players when in years past when there was no instigator rule and everyone was "accoutable" things were even worse. How do you still believe that?</p></blockquote>


What makes back then "worse"? The fact that fights were a more common occurrence?


Look at the style of play the 70s and 80s entailed. The game back then was much slower and much more physical. Guys coming into the league were drafted based on height and power, not puck possession and two way play as you see today. Everyone wanted the next Lindros or Messier. Once Europeans started to come over, the Cold War ended, and European tactics started getting integrated slowly into the way the game is played.


Now? The game isn't about so much power or intimidation. It's more based around skill and speed. Though, that doesn't mean physical play is gone; if anything it's there just as much as before.


Dirty acts happen every year in all sports, but hockey due to it's more physical and "violent" style gets casted under a microscope more than the others. I wouldn't say there was more cheap play back then as I'm seeing just as much now if not worse. Back then, guys were more accountable and there was more respect. Sure, there were a few bad eggs (Cicceralli, Marchment, Domi, Samulesson) but you have just as many if not more now (Kaleta, Torres, Cooke). At least back then fights kept guys a bit more honest, maybe made them think twice. Now, if you run a guy or cross the line you don't have to answer the consequences for your actions. Back then, guys like Probert, Domi, McSorley, Grimson, Peluso wouldn't go after you for no reason unless you gave them one. Knowing that if you ran a guy and you probably would be challenged to a fight struck a bit of fear into going over the line. Now, guys don't have to answer to anyone for their actions, but instead get to turtle and force the other team to take a penalty. There is no justice or honor in that and if they ban fighting, be prepared for even more lack of respect, if it can even get that far.

 

[Chief Walking Stick]

Can we please make a new thread or move these posts to a new thread about fighting?

There hasn't been any legit discussion of the "season" in a while.

It's a great debate... just would be better discussed in a new thread.

YEA IM PLAYING BACKSEAT MODERATOR

 

[Chief Walking Stick]

Meanwhile... Ovechkin and Stamkos are both scoring 60 this year. Wonder when the last time two players scored 60 goals was?

 

[Variable]

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Trev" data-cid="213400" data-time="1383870545">
<div>


What makes back then "worse"? The fact that fights were a more common occurrence?


Look at the style of play the 70s and 80s entailed. The game back then was much slower and much more physical. Guys coming into the league were drafted based on height and power, not puck possession and two way play as you see today. Everyone wanted the next Lindros or Messier. Once Europeans started to come over, the Cold War ended, and European tactics started getting integrated slowly into the way the game is played.


Now? The game isn't about so much power or intimidation. It's more based around skill and speed. Though, that doesn't mean physical play is gone; if anything it's there just as much as before.


Dirty acts happen every year in all sports, but hockey due to it's more physical and "violent" style gets casted under a microscope more than the others. I wouldn't say there was more cheap play back then as I'm seeing just as much now if not worse. Back then, guys were more accountable and there was more respect. Sure, there were a few bad eggs (Cicceralli, Marchment, Domi, Samulesson) but you have just as many if not more now (Kaleta, Torres, Cooke). At least back then fights kept guys a bit more honest, maybe made them think twice. Now, if you run a guy or cross the line you don't have to answer the consequences for your actions. Back then, guys like Probert, Domi, McSorley, Grimson, Peluso wouldn't go after you for no reason unless you gave them one. Knowing that if you ran a guy and you probably would be challenged to a fight struck a bit of fear into going over the line. Now, guys don't have to answer to anyone for their actions, but instead get to turtle and force the other team to take a penalty. There is no justice or honor in that and if they ban fighting, be prepared for even more lack of respect, if it can even get that far.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>


 </p>


It was worse back then because what you say fighting did, it didn't do. It didn't settle anything, it just stirred things up even more. Problems didn't end with just a fight. It  kept going, it kept escalting. Trading cheap shots for cheap shots, they just simply weren't seen as such back then. There was no objectivity or common ground in any of it, it was impossible for that to exist when it's "Us v. Them". It was a never-ending cycle. Goons were trying to goad, fight and/or hurt star or skilled players in order to take them out of the game, one way or the other, not for any "honorable" reason. Why do you want to hand that kind of responsiblity of "polcing the game" back to players like that? They've proven they cannot handle it whatsoever.</p>


 </p>


And because the game was slower, doesn't make those type of hits any more acceptable with what we've learned. Those were seen as hockey plays back then, not dirty hits. Now we know better and they are seen as such. A deliberate elbow to the face is a dirty play, I don't care what era we are talking about. That doesn't excuse it.</p>

 

[Shantz My Pants]

The game back then wasn't based around speed like it is now. My point was the game had a different style unlike today where it's mixed with more skill and puck possession.


Goons went after star players? Give me a break. Goons only went after other guys skilled players if theirs were fucked with first. Now pests like Samuelson and Tikkanen would go after skilled guys but they were hardly goons and they answered the bell.


Fights never ended it they would just escalate it? Yeah, the game had more rivalries and you saw certain teams more than twice, if course tempers and such would boil over. That's what made them exciting. Two teams who don't like each other battling till the end for the victory. What's so awful about that?


You can say the players don't know better, but they do. Goalies wearing masks? That's cause Plante was tired of getting hit in the face and others followed suit. Mandatory visors? It's because most guys coming up on the league were wearing them already, and the benefits are there for health reasons as well. These aren't things the league have mandated, these all went through the players first. Try getting a ban on fighting, it won't happen. They know better because they know if you ban it the game will be worse off and it will be more assassination attempts then ever. YouTube games from the world championships and all the dirty hits and cheap play that goes on there. I've seen a lot of equally if not worse things go on there and fighting isn't allowed.


What will happen when a guy is running guys and playing over the edge and their is no ability to hold him responsible for his actions? You think the game will be cleaner? You think guys won't start playing with more wreck less abandon? Why shouldn't they play over the edge more? What is holding them back? Some guys can run around throwing heavy hits that are deemed "legal" but are wreck less and have bad intentions. Now how do you try and stop it? Now how do you make them tone it down. For a lot of guys, knowing that they will have to answer for it keeps them toned down. A certain few don't give a shit. Unfortunately, with fighting gone, that number will start rising in the latter category.

 

[MassHavoc]

Florida Panthers fire head coach Kevin Dineen

 

[LordKOTL]

I saw this.  Interesting take by Dale--on the fact that the coaches lost the players.  I love what he did for Chicago but really, I can see the pikes being sharpened for his head if the Panthers don't 180.</p>

 

[Chief Walking Stick]

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MassHavoc" data-cid="213468" data-time="1383936891">
<div>


Florida Panthers fire head coach Kevin Dineen</p>
</div>
</blockquote>


 </p>


Sorry I almost missed this with all of the talk about fighting going on.</p>

 

[winos5]

He fell out of Dale's lap</p>

 

[xatruio]

yeah, that video variable posted of "dirty hits" from the 80s and 90s, many werent dirty by those standards , just because the much slower speed of the games back then made those hits a lot less violent and injuring.

Wonder if Dale will find a dance partner in Bergevin or Bowman, even Chevvy?

 

[Variable]

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="xatruio" data-cid="213489" data-time="1383940478">


yeah, that video variable posted of "dirty hits" from the 80s and 90s, many werent dirty by those standards , just because the much slower speed of the games back then made those hits a lot less violent and injuring.


Wonder if Dale will find a dance partner in Bergevin or Bowman, even Chevvy?</p></blockquote>
The slower pace of the game doesn't matter when it comes to a deliberate elbow to the face. Or other blatant headshots and blind side hits and boarding and crosschecks to the face. Those aren't from the game being slower. That's just a weak excuse.


The amount of clutching and grabbing? Obstruction? Yeah I'll give you those as products of the speed of the game during that time. But not the others. If anything it can be argued that with a slower game, you had more control over how you were checking players. Not the opposite.

 

[Chief Walking Stick]

http://www.indianheadnation.com/topic/5600-fighting-its-place-or-lack-thereof-in-the-nhl/</p>

 

[CLWolf81]

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MassHavoc" data-cid="213468" data-time="1383936891">
<div>


Florida Panthers fire head coach Kevin Dineen</p>
</div>
</blockquote>


 </p>


This shocks me. Dineen is not the problem. </p>

 

[Chief Walking Stick]

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="CLWolf81" data-cid="213523" data-time="1383970231">
<div>


This shocks me. Dineen is not the problem. </p>
</div>
</blockquote>


 </p>


Tallon is.  I know that's blasphemy on here, but it's the truth.</p>

 

[CLWolf81]

Yep and as much as I hate saying it, he is causing his own mess down there. </p>

 

[xatruio]

hey lets all talk about the dineen and bryz news in the hockey fighting thread.