2015 NBA Finals Thread (Golden State Warriors vs Cleveland Cavs)

[Scoot26]

Some of them did, which is somewhat encouraging. I mean it's a rare case where a guy on a losing team REALLY deserves consideration for the award but this year was a year I think it should have happened. I think Igoudala was more valuable to the Warriors offense than defense honestly considering the struggles Thompson had all series. James did was James did pretty much the entire playoffs. Shot poorly but put up huge numbers anyways. There wasn't really a difference.

I made the comparison earlier in the series to James reminding me of Barkley in the 92-93 Finals and it still holds true.

Thing was Jordan was even better in the 93 Finals. While no one on Golden State can claim that.

 

[FirstTimer]

Where did I tear him down? And where did I mention Jordan? I could give a shit what Jordan did. I gave my opinion on what happened. Lebron almost missed more shots then Steph Curry took in the series. If this was Kobe, people would be calling him a ball hog and everything else. Lebron did what he had to do, but his stat line was inflated by having almost every possession in his hand. Im not saying he made it that way. It had to be that way.

Actually, if this were Kobe they'd be handing him Finals MVP. Do I need to remind you of Kobe's 6-24 Game 7 against Boston which LA won?

You do realize that even with Kyrie Irving playing in Game 1 James still took 38 shots and scored 44 points. This type of thing isn't outside the norm.

Yes, James shot poorly. Great. He has shot poorly for the last two months.

What's your point?

 

[FirstTimer]

Thing was Jordan was even better in the 93 Finals. While no one on Golden State can claim that.

Oh no doubt, wasn't saying Barkley deserved that MVP or even to be considered for it. Was just more referencing my talking point earlier about Barkley/James still being great but having their efficiency be lower for a host of reasons.

I guess I don't see Rami's angle here or really the angle of anyone saying Iggy forced James to shoot poorly. James has been struggling shooting the ball for months.

 

[Scoot26]

For reference:

G		Opp		FG	FGA	FG%	3P%	FT%	PTS	+/-
1		BOS	W (+13)	8	18	0.444	0.333	0.75	20	5
2		BOS	W (+8)	11	22	0.500	0.2	0.875	30	11
3	@	BOS	W (+8)	13	26	0.500	0.2	0.8	31	2
4	@	BOS	W (+8)	10	24	0.417	0.143	0.6	27	6
5		CHI	L (-7)	9	22	0.409	0	0.5	19	-12
6		CHI	W (+15)	13	29	0.448	0	0.778	33	29
7	@	CHI	L (-3)	8	25	0.320	0.143	0.909	27	-1
8	@	CHI	W (+2)	10	30	0.333	0.143	1	25	4
9		CHI	W (+5)	14	24	0.583	0.2	0.75	38	-8
10	@	CHI	W (+21)	7	23	0.304	0	0.5	15	20
11	@	ATL	W (+8)	12	26	0.462	0	0.875	31	2
12	@	ATL	W (+12)	10	22	0.455	0.286	0.727	30	20
13		ATL	W (+3)	14	37	0.378	0.167	0.8	37	-3
14		ATL	W (+30)	10	20	0.500	0.333	0.25	23	19
15	@	GSW	L (-8)	18	38	0.474	0.25	0.6	44	-3
16	@	GSW	W (+2)	11	35	0.314	0.5	0.778	39	1
17		GSW	W (+5)	14	34	0.412	0.333	0.833	40	7
18		GSW	L (-21)	7	22	0.318	0.25	0.5	20	-14
19	@	GSW	L (-13)	15	34	0.441	0.375	0.778	40	-11
20		GSW	L (-8)	13	33	0.394	0.2	0.5	32	-2

LeBron shot best against Boston and Atlanta, neither of whom really had anyone who could bother LeBron.. Chicago and GSW had Butler and Iggy who did indeed bother LeBron.

I'd say they had an effect, but I wouldn't say either player was so good as to shut down LeBron by any means.

 

[SilenceS]

For reference:

G		Opp		FG	FGA	FG%	3P%	FT%	PTS	+/-
1		BOS	W (+13)	8	18	0.444	0.333	0.75	20	5
2		BOS	W (+8)	11	22	0.500	0.2	0.875	30	11
3	@	BOS	W (+8)	13	26	0.500	0.2	0.8	31	2
4	@	BOS	W (+8)	10	24	0.417	0.143	0.6	27	6
5		CHI	L (-7)	9	22	0.409	0	0.5	19	-12
6		CHI	W (+15)	13	29	0.448	0	0.778	33	29
7	@	CHI	L (-3)	8	25	0.320	0.143	0.909	27	-1
8	@	CHI	W (+2)	10	30	0.333	0.143	1	25	4
9		CHI	W (+5)	14	24	0.583	0.2	0.75	38	-8
10	@	CHI	W (+21)	7	23	0.304	0	0.5	15	20
11	@	ATL	W (+8)	12	26	0.462	0	0.875	31	2
12	@	ATL	W (+12)	10	22	0.455	0.286	0.727	30	20
13		ATL	W (+3)	14	37	0.378	0.167	0.8	37	-3
14		ATL	W (+30)	10	20	0.500	0.333	0.25	23	19
15	@	GSW	L (-8)	18	38	0.474	0.25	0.6	44	-3
16	@	GSW	W (+2)	11	35	0.314	0.5	0.778	39	1
17		GSW	W (+5)	14	34	0.412	0.333	0.833	40	7
18		GSW	L (-21)	7	22	0.318	0.25	0.5	20	-14
19	@	GSW	L (-13)	15	34	0.441	0.375	0.778	40	-11
20		GSW	L (-8)	13	33	0.394	0.2	0.5	32	-2

LeBron shot best against Boston and Atlanta, neither of whom really had anyone who could bother LeBron.. Chicago and GSW had Butler and Iggy who did indeed bother LeBron.

I'd say they had an effect, but I wouldn't say either player was so good as to shut down LeBron by any means.

No one can "shut down" Lebron. But, they can harass him and make him except more energy then he would like and stop him in key possessions. Iggy did that. His length bothered Lebron. He moved his feet well even got a charge called in the last game. We all know how Lebron never gets called for charges even when he is a loose loco motive. Hebron didn't just miss jump shots. He missed layups against Iggy. That isn't just bad shooting.

 

[Axl Rose]

why should a guy on the losing team deserve consideration?

too me that is ridiculously stupid...you shouldn't get a trophy for participation

i would lose all respect for any player that would accept FMVP if they lost the series

 

[FirstTimer]

LeBron shot best against Boston and Atlanta.

And in each of those series he didn't shoot great. 46%(20% from three) vs Boston and 43%(25%) from three versus Atlanta.

James shot pretty poorly this post season regardless of who was guarding him. And even after Iggy started and played big minutes James still had a "bump" game where he shot 44% which was actually his second best shooting performance of the series.

I just think the Iggy/defense narrative is getting a tad overblown.

 

[BNB]

This was after 4 games.


As for the entire series:

When Iguodala was in the game, LeBron James shot 38.1 percent from the field, scoring 26 points per 36 minutes with 2.9 turnovers. With Iguodala on the bench, James shot 44 percent, averaging 35 points per 36 minutes with 2.2 turnovers. With Iguodala as the primary defender, opponents shot 37.2 percent overall, and he gave up free throws the same percentage of time (10.8 percent) that he forced a turnover, via Synergy Sports. Those are steller defensive numbers.

So for this particular series, it looks as though Iggy did have a pretty big impact defensively overall.

 

[FirstTimer]

This was after 4 games.


As for the entire series:

When Iguodala was in the game, LeBron James shot 38.1 percent from the field, scoring 26 points per 36 minutes with 2.9 turnovers. With Iguodala on the bench, James shot 44 percent, averaging 35 points per 36 minutes with 2.2 turnovers. With Iguodala as the primary defender, opponents shot 37.2 percent overall, and he gave up free throws the same percentage of time (10.8 percent) that he forced a turnover, via Synergy Sports. Those are steller defensive numbers.

So for this particular series, it looks as though Iggy did have a pretty big impact defensively overall.

Again,

James has shot awful this entire playoffs really. Aside from vs Boston he was very bad.

The problem with the synergy numbers are that the non-Iggy guarding James sample size is incredibly small. Even before starting he was playing 30+ minutes per game. James was obviously playing a huge volume. Did he bother James more than say Draymond Green did? Sure. But that's true of anyone because Igoudala is a better defender in general. Did Iggy "shut down" James or make James do anything he wasn't doing when he wasn't be guarded by Iggy or any other team this post season? Not really.

James shot like shit for two months. Acting as though the best defensive team in basketball causing him to shoot worse is somehow MVP worthy? I don't get it.

TL;DR: James, who has been shooting terribly for months, continuing to shoot poorly against the best defensive team in the NBA, regardless of matchup, isn't shocking.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I want to address this point as well:


The voters are idiots. Lebron was having shooting issues before Iggy started primarily checking him and starting. Hell, James didn't shoot well the entire playoffs. People acting like Andre Igoudala suddenly started making James shoot poorly weren't really paying attention the previous two months. In games two and three James shot below 40% combined. The Cavs won both games. Lebron should have won this Finals MVP.

Kawhi Leonard won MVP in part last year because of this perception that he "shut down James".

James' Finals last year:
57% shooting (52% from 3pt range)
28 PPG
8 RPG
4 APG

Leonard did a good job on LeBron last year, but LeBron was unstoppable all series. He did a better job on LeBron than anyone could've hoped, but there was more than one reason he won MVP. He scored and rebounded well in the last 3 games of the series (all Spurs wins).

Now, to say LeBron should've won Finals MVP, is a bit much. If it was the "Finals Best Player" Award then yeah. However, it is the Most Valuable Player award and there isn't much value in winning 2 out of 6 games. Obviously, without LeBron, the Cavs win 2 less games. However, it's hard to imagine the Warriors winning Games 4, 5, or 6 without Iguodala... or without Curry. If LeBron had somehow taken that group of scrubs to a 7th game, then I would've been advocating for him to get the Finals MVP even if the Cavs had lost a Game 7. LeBron's series was undeniable. Great all around effort facilitating, rebounding, and being aggressive attacking the rim. He left it all out on the floor and I respect that a lot.

 

[FirstTimer]

Leonard did a good job on LeBron last year, but LeBron was unstoppable all series.

Leonard did a good job on James...but James was unstoppable.................

Now, to say LeBron should've won Finals MVP, is a bit much.

It absolutely is not.

LeBron contributed the most points for his team in finals history and shouldered more of a burden than any player in finals history, led both teams in points, assists and rebounds and was clearly the best player on the floor. Your argument about a 7th game doesn't even make sense. If James had performed the exact same but the series goes 7 games then James can be the MVP? That's absurd. The performance is the same. The dominance, the same. etc

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Leonard did a good job on James...but James was unstoppable.................





It absolutely is not.

LeBron contributed the most points for his team in finals history and shouldered more of a burden than any player in finals history, led both teams in points, assists and rebounds and was clearly the best player on the floor

It basically comes down to what you believe defines "value" in "most valuable player". If you think the best player should get it no matter what, then you think LeBron should've gotten it. If you think it is about how many wins you definitively produced for your team, then it is a bit more debatable. In my opinion, I don't think LeBron produced as many wins for his team in the Finals then perhaps Iguodala (great all-around numbers, as well) or Curry. But, sure, there is an argument to be had.

 

[FirstTimer]

It basically comes down to what you believe defines "value" in "most valuable player".

"LeBron contributed the most points for his team in finals history and shouldered more of a burden than any player in finals history, led both teams in points, assists and rebounds and was clearly the best player on the floor".

I would say the above is pretty valuable.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

"LeBron contributed the most points for his team in finals history and shouldered more of a burden than any player in finals history, led both teams in points, assists and rebounds and was clearly the best player on the floor".

I would say the above is pretty valuable.

Sure, but (hypothetically) if LeBron put up the exact same statistics and played with the same effort/style, and the Cavs lost in 4 instead of in 6, would you still feel he would've deserved to be Finals MVP?

 

[FirstTimer]

Sure, but (hypothetically) if LeBron put up the exact same statistics and played with the same effort/style, and the Cavs lost in 4 instead of in 6, would you still feel he would've deserved to be Finals MVP?

Yes.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Yes.

That is the difference between our opinions. To me, no matter how great you play, if the result didn't result in a win then there would be no discernible value in what you did on the floor.

 

[FirstTimer]

That is the difference between our opinions. To me, no matter how great you play, if the result didn't result in a win then there would be no discernible value in what you did on the floor.

:enough:

 

[Axl Rose]

this is similar to ppl saying Westbrook should be MVP

if your numbers aren't producing wins or in this case a championship you shouldn't be awarded MVP

if the trophy was called "Most Gaudy Stats" then Bron and Westbrook would have a case

 

[RoseMVP1]

And since it hasn't been brought up yet, that I've seen, I just want to throw it out there that the way lebron treated Blatt was ridiculous. It's bad for the game. The man won 16 championships in like 20 years or something like that in Europe and lebron rotuntly treated him like shit.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Lebron was definitely the best player in the series even with his crap shooting. This was going to be true no matter what. Whether or not you would consider him Finals MVP depends partially on whether or not you think someone on the losing team should even be considered. If you're ok with it, obviously Lebron is the choice for you. If not, you gotta go with Iggy or Steph imo.