2021-2022 IGT Masterthread

[zack54attack]

Bulls are fully vaccinated.

 

[knoxville7]

Ayo has played in 8 games lol. This logic makes no sense. You need scoring off the bench, we can't settle for 13 bench points every night.

Yet, you ignore the 2 years of negative VORP from coby. I never said it was a large sample size for Ayo

and so coby comes back and provides points off the bench let’s say. How does it help to get 13 or whatever a game from coby when he’s giving up 15+ a game on defense to the opponent?

that’s how VORP(Value Over Replacement Player) works. It’s the equivalent of WAR(Wins Above Replacement) in baseball. Just like in baseball, it’s cool if a guy can mash 30 homeruns, but if he’s giving up more runs than he’s producing…he ends up with a negative WAR. So yeah, coby can come in and score points in bunches at times…and that looks cool and all, but he’s giving up just as many or more points on the other end. Hence, why I said he doesn’t play winning basketball

 

[zack54attack]

Yet, you ignore the 2 years of negative VORP from coby. I never said it was a large sample size for Ayo

and so coby comes back and provides points off the bench let’s say. How does it help to get 13 or whatever a game from coby when he’s giving up 15+ a game on defense to the opponent?

that’s how VORP(Value Over Replacement Player) works. It’s the equivalent of WAR(Wins Above Replacement) in baseball. Just like in baseball, it’s cool if a guy can mash 30 homeruns, but if he’s giving up more runs than he’s producing…he ends up with a negative WAR. So yeah, coby can come in and score points in bunches at times…and that looks cool and all, but he’s giving up just as many or more points on the other end. Hence, why I said he doesn’t play winning basketball

You're taking 2 years of a stat for Coby and saying Ayo is already better in 8 games. That's not a good sample size especially since we haven't seen Coby in a role like he's going to play this year.

I think you're missing the point of how bad the bench has been. They've had moments but this isn't a good scoring bench and it's putting A LOT on Lavine and DeMar to both average 30 a night. That's not going to work.

But hey, can't take any minutes from Ayo because he scored double digits in a game! And I like Ayo. I just don't see how we can sit here and say he's done enough to give us confidence that this bench can score and be good. He's a rookie in 8 games, not a veteran that has proven it.

 

[knoxville7]

You're taking 2 years of a stat for Coby and saying Ayo is already better in 8 games. That's not a good sample size especially since we haven't seen Coby in a role like he's going to play this year.

I think you're missing the point of how bad the bench has been. They've had moments but this isn't a good scoring bench and it's putting A LOT on Lavine and DeMar to both average 30 a night. That's not going to work.

But hey, can't take any minutes from Ayo because he scored double digits in a game! And I like Ayo. I just don't see how we can sit here and say he's done enough to give us confidence that this bench can score and be good. He's a rookie in 8 games, not a veteran that has proven it.

You’ve clearly missed the numerous times where I’ve stated, “if Ayo keeps playing like this…”

in other words, ive acknowledged and stated it’s a small sample size. Not sure why you keep harping on this. Maybe it’s because that’s all you have to keep saying about it because the numbers regarding Coby only show that I’m right about him being a net negative player on the court.

you’re basically saying, the bench is poor! We need to improve the bench!! And then suggesting a net negative player is the solution to the bench’s problems. Think on that for a minute

the reality is, coby needs to be traded for someone that CAN help the bench squad out and improve. A big that can defend and rebound and help get the bulls out on some fast breaks to get easy buckets. That’s what will help this bench squad out.

 

[Enasic]

I’m not ready to say Coby can’t be a big bench piece. That said, he needs to show improvement defensively, offensive efficiency, and overall consistency. If he does all that, he’s going to be a factor. Hell, even if he just improves defensively and consistency wise, he’ll be a big boost. He’s been terrible defensively, but he’s still young and will now be playing more against second units and have a completely different role than last year. The injury def sets him back though and Ayo is already a much better defender. Very curious to see how it all plays out

 

[clonetrooper264]

It's worthy to note that going into this game the Bulls bench was near the bottom of the league in scoring. Defensive intensity is great and should be applauded from this group, but at the end of the day the name of the game is to score and it is unsustainable to rely on Demar and Zach to drop 30 points a piece night in and night out. A guy like Coby coming in and being another guy who can score is going to help, even if his VORP is negative and his defense isn't great.

And hey, maybe he builds his value up and we end up trading him anyway, but that piece we get in return will be much greater if we can showcase his ability to score. Just look at Tyler Herro in Miami.

 

[CHIBEAR]

Again, so you want to put 4 guys on the court with coby that struggle offensively and expect coby to carry the offense for stretches of time on the court. That’s a bad idea. Coby playing hero ball is the problem, so your solution is to put him in positions that will only amplify that

and the bulls NEVER will have 5 bench guys on the court at the same time in any sort of meaningful minutes. Billy has shown that Lavine and/or derozan will be on the court at any given time that matters. So I’m not sure why you are harping on the notion that the bulls have “zero scoring potential in current lineups.” That’s just false

You've already seemed to make up your mind about what Coby will do even though its basically an entirely new team.

Im putting 4 bench guys on the floor with Coby because thats what we will likely see at times to buy both Zach and DeRozan a few extra minutes rest ? Why would he have to play hero ball? Why cant he benefit from the transition and open threes the rest of the bench guys benefit from as well ? Now Coby will also be able to to get some minutes on the flor with Derozan or Zach as well so .

Your claims are making no sense right now because it shows a ridiculous amount of bias right now . Coby White is the 4th best scorer on this team . He doesn't have to carry the offense or play hero ball because the team is generating a ridiculous amount of open looks and opportunities the issue is they have a limited number of shot makers outside of the big three.

The ONLY reason that we don't play 5 bench guys is because we dont have a 3rd perimeter scorer and that doesn't mean you have to use that lineup for 15 minutes . It would would only be used for 4-5 actual game minutes and more often on back to backs and such . This all simple concepts but because you really dont want Coby to play and want him you are simply being obtuse for no good reason .

Youve gone so far down the rabbit hole you are basically trying to sell the belief that our bench doing nothing and having to leave Zach and Derozan in the game for nearly the entire second half to mount comebacks as a good thing .

Zach and DD are both in the top 20 in mpg so far this year and that is simply not a recipe for long-term success and beginning on Saturday we will start a stretch of 14 games in 23 days including 3 sets of back to back but somehow we cant use another offensive weapons' and we wont ever play an all bench lineup ?

 

[Scoot26]

Is there a crime in waiting and seeing what Coby is like off the bench?

 

[Hawkeye OG]

@knoxville7 vs @zack54attack showdown!

I see both points. I want Ayo to keep his minutes, but it's going to be trial and error. Coby needs to play to see what he brings. We know what he brings as a starter, we'll see what he has off the bench and if he can provide a spark. Zack's right tho - relying on Lavine and Demar for 30+ a game isn't sustainable imo. The Bulls need to figure out something.

 

[Scoot26]

@knoxville7 vs @zack54attack showdown!

I see both points. I want Ayo to keep his minutes, but it's going to be trial and error. Coby needs to play to see what he brings. We know what he brings as a starter, we'll see what he has off the bench and if he can provide a spark. Zack's right tho - relying on Lavine and Demar for 30+ a game isn't sustainable imo. The Bulls need to figure out something.

And knoxville may very well end up 100% correct about Coby.. but I reiterate my point in that, we won't know that until we put him out there and try.

I also don't think a single bench player will be responsible for the team consistently blowing leads / games. If Coby comes in and is complete garbage, sure, get rid of him, give his minutes to Ayo. But I'd argue Ayo is going to need a whole season to develop, and it's nice we've seen some flashes, but the consistency is by no means there.

As far as VORP... PJ Tucker had a -0.8 VORP last year.. Bucks still won the ship. And I recall PJ Tucker being pretty good contributor to them winning the championship. Granted he was in there more for defense than offense, so the opposite of Coby. But I'm not sure just using VORP is a magical case against Coby White.

Let's see what he does when he comes back first.

 

[knoxville7]

do we really expect coby to come in and show improvement from the first two seasons, when this offseason he was rehabbing his shoulder and unable to work on his game?

that’s why I feel confident that he will be the same coby he’s been.

now, I’d love to end up 100% wrong on coby. I’d love for him to show up and still be a scorer, but have improved defense, and play more under control…but there’s zero reason to think this will be the case

this whole, “let’s see how he plays when he gets back” line is interesting to me that so many are thinking there’s going to be vast improvement in his game

and I’m not saying VORP is the end all be all stat, but like baseballs WAR, it’s a damn good indicator of who is and isn’t helping their teams win games. That doesn’t mean a championship team has all positive VORP players. But I imagine a player of Giannis’ caliber covers up some of those deficiencies from guys like PJ tucker. That’s what the best player in the league does for a roster. Let me know when we have a guy like that, though. Cuz we dont

 

[Enasic]

For what it’s worth, I’ve never liked VORP and think it’s one of the worst advanced metrics available. Cobys defense has definitely been shit, though and he’s been very inconsistent offensively. The hope is that he grows into a solid defender and excels in a bench role as a scorer. He definitely struggled to find his way as the starting PG last season. Coming off the bench should suit him much better. I’d like to see him get that 3 pt% up too. He’s been solid, but would like to see him shoot it at a 38+%

 

[knoxville7]

Lol I am glad that now people are finally accepting that Coby is not a starting point guard

I remember telling people he needed to come off the bench so he could face other teams bench players instead of their starters, and people got so upset at me for that comment

 

[knoxville7]

@knoxville7 vs @zack54attack showdown!

I see both points. I want Ayo to keep his minutes, but it's going to be trial and error. Coby needs to play to see what he brings. We know what he brings as a starter, we'll see what he has off the bench and if he can provide a spark. Zack's right tho - relying on Lavine and Demar for 30+ a game isn't sustainable imo. The Bulls need to figure out something.

And at least me and @zack54attack can get into it a lil bit without any name calling/childish antics

it’s fun and refreshing to see that it doesn’t have to get personal. I like @zack54attack still and hopefully he didn’t get offended by anything I said

 

[Hawkeye OG]

And at least me and @zack54attack can get into it a lil bit without any name calling/childish antics

it’s fun and refreshing to see that it doesn’t have to get personal. I like @zack54attack still and hopefully he didn’t get offended by anything I said

I'm sure he's fine. It was healthy dialogue

 

[zack54attack]

Is there a crime in waiting and seeing what Coby is like off the bench?

No. No there's not.

 

[zack54attack]

And at least me and @zack54attack can get into it a lil bit without any name calling/childish antics

it’s fun and refreshing to see that it doesn’t have to get personal. I like @zack54attack still and hopefully he didn’t get offended by anything I said

I debated for 8 hours on whether or not to permaban you last night.

Spoiler

 

[Scoot26]

do we really expect coby to come in and show improvement from the first two seasons, when this offseason he was rehabbing his shoulder and unable to work on his game?

that’s why I feel confident that he will be the same coby he’s been.

now, I’d love to end up 100% wrong on coby. I’d love for him to show up and still be a scorer, but have improved defense, and play more under control…but there’s zero reason to think this will be the case

this whole, “let’s see how he plays when he gets back” line is interesting to me that so many are thinking there’s going to be vast improvement in his game

Personally I think he'll be slow to get up to speed. I think he'll need about 2 months worth of games before we can say one way or another how he fits in with the new team.

Like you, I'm not high on him.. though if Coby is going to be anything in the NBA, that anything is a 6th man.

The fact I know this team isn't going to win a championship is also why I don't mind waiting and seeing what Coby can do. To me there is no harm. Trading him for a PF this season isn't going to make us top contenders suddenly.

 

[Scoot26]

Lol I am glad that now people are finally accepting that Coby is not a starting point guard

I remember telling people he needed to come off the bench so he could face other teams bench players instead of their starters, and people got so upset at me for that comment

Another case of I think we needed to try it out and see it. After last season, I (and probably everyone else) can safely say he isn't a starting PG.

 

[knoxville7]

Personally I think he'll be slow to get up to speed. I think he'll need about 2 months worth of games before we can say one way or another how he fits in with the new team.

Like you, I'm not high on him.. though if Coby is going to be anything in the NBA, that anything is a 6th man.

The fact I know this team isn't going to win a championship is also why I don't mind waiting and seeing what Coby can do. To me there is no harm. Trading him for a PF this season isn't going to make us top contenders suddenly.

Call me naive or gullible or whatever, but I do think if the bulls got the right back up big guy…they could be legit contenders this year in the East. I don’t see anyone playing basketball at a level clearly higher than the bulls yet(granted still early).

the nets? They seem kinda just another good team with no Kyrie and a subdued James harden

knicks? They are good and they beat us once but I don’t think they are some unbeatable team for the bulls

bucks? Maybe just a title hangover but so far they haven’t looked great. A back up big that can play would go a long ways to helping the bulls corral giannis a bit

heat? They so far look like they could be the best team in the East. That said, outside of Bam…they don’t play a big lineup either…so matchup wise I think the bulls can hang with them

I just don’t see anyone in the East as a team the bulls should fear or be outmatched by right now.