2021-2022 IGT Masterthread

[Hawkeye OG]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1460485198546620417

 

[Scoot26]

Yep. He’s actually shooting better and overall more efficient so far. Currently averaging career best in PER (25) and WS/48 by a wide margin (.222). His WS/48 is insane right now.

Just for comparisons sake:

Regular stats:

Season▲

Age

Tm

Lg

Pos

G

GS

MP

FG

FGA

FG%

3P

3PA

3P%

2P

2PA

2P%

eFG%

FT

FTA

FT%

ORB

DRB

TRB

AST

STL

BLK

TOV

PF

PTS

2016-17

27​

TOR

NBA

SG

74​

74​

35.4​

9.7​

20.9​

0.467​

0.4​

1.7​

0.266​

9.3​

19.2​

0.484​

0.477​

7.4​

8.7​

0.842​

0.9​

4.3​

5.2​

3.9​

1.1​

0.2​

2.4​

1.8​

27.3​

2021-22

32​

CHI

NBA

SF

14​

14​

35.3​

9.6​

18.8​

0.51​

0.9​

2.5​

0.371​

8.6​

16.3​

0.531​

0.534​

6.9​

7.9​

0.873​

0.8​

4.6​

5.4​

4.1​

0.9​

0.4​

1.9​

2.3​

26.9​

Career

NBA

895​

883​

34.1​

7.3​

15.7​

0.461​

0.4​

1.5​

0.283​

6.8​

14.3​

0.48​

0.474​

5.3​

6.4​

0.834​

0.7​

3.6​

4.4​

3.8​

1​

0.3​

2​

2.3​

20.3​

Advanced stats:

Season

Age

Tm

Lg

Pos

G

MP

PER

TS%

3PAr

FTr

ORB%

DRB%

TRB%

AST%

STL%

BLK%

TOV%

USG%

OWS

DWS

WS

WS/48

OBPM

DBPM

BPM

VORP

2016-17

27​

TOR

NBA

SG

74​

2620​

24​

0.552​

0.08​

0.419​

3​

13.6​

8.3​

20.6​

1.5​

0.4​

9​

34.3​

6.7​

2.4​

9​

0.166​

4.1​

-1​

3​

3.3​

2021-22

32​

CHI

NBA

SF

14​

494​

25.2​

0.605​

0.133​

0.418​

2.5​

14.1​

8.4​

20.4​

1.2​

1.1​

8​

30.2​

1.9​

0.6​

2.4​

0.237​

4.7​

-0.8​

3.9​

0.7​

Career

NBA

895​

30540​

18.6​

0.546​

0.094​

0.406​

2.5​

12​

7.3​

18.9​

1.5​

0.7​

9.9​

27.1​

55.6​

21.8​

77.4​

0.122​

1.4​

-0.8​

0.6​

20.3​

 

[knoxville7]

Crazy that demar is having his career year at age 32

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

And I would argue against some of those names. Lonzo does things better that don’t necessarily show up in the box score. Hell, after the first handful of games or so, Lonzo was rated the best player in the league in one article. But, I won’t bother arguing with you over it

p.s. Lonzo has owned a couple of the guys this season that you named

Caruso, as well as Ball, spear-heading the opposing primary ball handler and keeping turnovers low is a big reason for the Bulls success so far this season. Ball is a very good player. Definitely not a top 10 point guard (the deepest position in the NBA), but he doesn't have to be

 

[knoxville7]

Caruso, as well as Ball, spear-heading the opposing primary ball handler and keeping turnovers low is a big reason for the Bulls success so far this season. Ball is a very good player. Definitely not a top 10 point guard (the deepest position in the NBA), but he doesn't have to be

We can agree to disagree. This season, there’s only like 5 PG’s clearly playing better than Lonzo currently. IMO, a lot of the names you listed are just that…names. Biggest example would be Westbrook. He’s a household name that a lot of people just assume he’s great. In reality, he’s not that good. He doesn’t play winning basketball, and there’s a reason that the lakers are struggling now that they added him, and the wizards are the #1 team in the East right now after they got rid of him while being a poor team when they had him. Sure, those triple doubles look cool, but playing winning basketball still matters

 

[clonetrooper264]

We can agree to disagree. This season, there’s only like 5 PG’s clearly playing better than Lonzo currently. IMO, a lot of the names you listed are just that…names. Biggest example would be Westbrook. He’s a household name that a lot of people just assume he’s great. In reality, he’s not that good. He doesn’t play winning basketball, and there’s a reason that the lakers are struggling now that they added him, and the wizards are the #1 team in the East right now after they got rid of him while being a poor team when they had him. Sure, those triple doubles look cool, but playing winning basketball still matters

Does Lamelo make the top 5 list? Imo he's been playing better than Lonzo all year

 

[knoxville7]

Does Lamelo make the top 5 list? Imo he's been playing better than Lonzo all year

I wouldn’t put him ahead of Lonzo. I was at the grizzlies hornets game last week and morant ate Lamelo’s lunch

Lonzo has shot the ball better and played much better defense than Lamelo. Lamelo does score more points total, but he’s also option #1, whereas Lonzo is option #3 or #4 when Vuc is back. Lamelo has a much higher usage rate, thus his numbers look better than Lonzos. But when you actually dig into things, I wouldn’t say Lamelo is clearly better than Lonzo. They are certainly different types of PG’s. And I’m not saying Lonzo is clearly better than Lamelo, just that its not definite that Lamelo is better than Lonzo overall

 

[clonetrooper264]

I wouldn’t put him ahead of Lonzo. I was at the grizzlies hornets game last week and morant ate Lamelo’s lunch

Lonzo has shot the ball better and played much better defense than Lamelo. Lamelo does score more points total, but he’s also option #1, whereas Lonzo is option #3 or #4 when Vuc is back. Lamelo has a much higher usage rate, thus his numbers look better than Lonzos. But when you actually dig into things, I wouldn’t say Lamelo is clearly better than Lonzo. They are certainly different types of PG’s. And I’m not saying Lonzo is clearly better than Lamelo, just that its not definite that Lamelo is better than Lonzo overall

Lonzo is probably better as a defender than Lamelo and you can argue that passing is a push. But in terms of creating offense Lamelo is a lot better imo. Lonzo does not create his own offense which is part of why he's the 4th option and has such a low usage percentage. If you're going to be a top 10 player of any sort in the NBA to me you have to at least be able to create your own offense.

 

[knoxville7]

Lonzo is probably better as a defender than Lamelo and you can argue that passing is a push. But in terms of creating offense Lamelo is a lot better imo. Lonzo does not create his own offense which is part of why he's the 4th option and has such a low usage percentage. If you're going to be a top 10 player of any sort in the NBA to me you have to at least be able to create your own offense.

I can agree Lamelo can get his own shot easier than Lonzo can. That’s the one area where Lamelo is clearly better than Lonzo. And I’m fine if people want to “rank” Lamelo ahead of Lonzo. I think they are on pretty equal footing myself.

I think a lot of it comes down to roster construction, and what a roster needs more of. In the hornets case, Lamelo is definitely more valuable than Lonzo because they need that #1 scoring option

The bulls roster, I think Lonzo works better than Lamelo would. The bulls need Lonzos defense and his ability to start fast breaks(yes Lamelo is good at that too, but not on Lonzos level). The bulls need those intangibles more than a guy that can create his own shot

I just don’t see 10 point guards playing better than Lonzo has THIS season

a good example of what I’m talking about would be Damian Lillard. Almost everyone would “rank” him ahead of Lonzo, yet Lonzo has vastly outplayed Lillard this season. Lillard is shooting under 40% and like 27% from 3. Is he a great player? Of course. Has he played better than Lonzo this season? Absolutely not

 

[clonetrooper264]

I can agree Lamelo can get his own shot easier than Lonzo can. That’s the one area where Lamelo is clearly better than Lonzo. And I’m fine if people want to “rank” Lamelo ahead of Lonzo. I think they are on pretty equal footing myself.

I think a lot of it comes down to roster construction, and what a roster needs more of. In the hornets case, Lamelo is definitely more valuable than Lonzo because they need that #1 scoring option

The bulls roster, I think Lonzo works better than Lamelo would. The bulls need Lonzos defense and his ability to start fast breaks(yes Lamelo is good at that too, but not on Lonzos level). The bulls need those intangibles more than a guy that can create his own shot

I just don’t see 10 point guards playing better than Lonzo has THIS season

a good example of what I’m talking about would be Damian Lillard. Almost everyone would “rank” him ahead of Lonzo, yet Lonzo has vastly outplayed Lillard this season. Lillard is shooting under 40% and like 27% from 3. Is he a great player? Of course. Has he played better than Lonzo this season? Absolutely not

Well who's your top PGs then? Just curious.

Lillard has absolutely been bad to start this year. I do think he'll bounce back though like any great player should. He and Vucevic are kinda in the same bucket there with the slow starts.

 

[knoxville7]

Well who's your top PGs then? Just curious.

Lillard has absolutely been bad to start this year. I do think he'll bounce back though like any great player should. He and Vucevic are kinda in the same bucket there with the slow starts.

Lillard very well might bounce back…and should. But again, as far as looking at PG play for just THIS season, Lillard is nowhere near a top 10 PG so far this season

guys that I would say are clearly better than Lonzo this season…

curry
Doncic
Paul
Morant

that’s about the only guys that have been clearly better than Lonzo this season. And let’s not forget that Lonzo did as good of a job defending Doncic as anyone has this season

then there’s a list of guys that I would kind of group together with Lonzo thus far this season…

young
Dinwiddie
Lamelo

so that’s 7 guys playing as good or better than Lonzo this season IMO. I may of forgotten a guy or two, but either way that would put Lonzo in the top 10 of point guards this season so far

and I’m sure many will disagree with the list I gave, and that’s fine. I don’t like the whole ranking of guys thing, but since you asked I dropped the names

 

[clonetrooper264]

Lillard very well might bounce back…and should. But again, as far as looking at PG play for just THIS season, Lillard is nowhere near a top 10 PG so far this season

guys that I would say are clearly better than Lonzo this season…

curry
Doncic
Paul
Morant

that’s about the only guys that have been clearly better than Lonzo this season. And let’s not forget that Lonzo did as good of a job defending Doncic as anyone has this season

then there’s a list of guys that I would kind of group together with Lonzo thus far this season…

young
Dinwiddie
Lamelo

so that’s 7 guys playing as good or better than Lonzo this season IMO. I may of forgotten a guy or two, but either way that would put Lonzo in the top 10 of point guards this season so far

and I’m sure many will disagree with the list I gave, and that’s fine. I don’t like the whole ranking of guys thing, but since you asked I dropped the names

I don't really care how you rank them, just curious as to who you do find to be at least as good as Lonzo. I do think Lonzo has performed his role very well to start this year so he's definitely been good in that context.

What are your thoughts on Malcom Brogdon? I think he has also played quite well to start the year. Or does a player have to be on a playoff ranked team to be considered?

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

We can agree to disagree. This season, there’s only like 5 PG’s clearly playing better than Lonzo currently. IMO, a lot of the names you listed are just that…names. Biggest example would be Westbrook. He’s a household name that a lot of people just assume he’s great. In reality, he’s not that good. He doesn’t play winning basketball, and there’s a reason that the lakers are struggling now that they added him, and the wizards are the #1 team in the East right now after they got rid of him while being a poor team when they had him. Sure, those triple doubles look cool, but playing winning basketball still matters

Roles on a team matters. Westbrook as your 1st or 2nd scoring option kind of works. Lonzo in that role, on the other hand, doesn't. Would the Lakers have a better record right now with Ball in Westbrook's place? I kind of doubt it. Not saying he has no upside over Westbrook. But you shouldn't let 16 games dictate your feelings. Being a top 20 point guard is about as good as being a top 10 center. The position is full of very good players. I mean, Rose is another example. He's become a good defender himself and is winning games for NY off the bench. I have a difficult time saying Ball is a better player than Rose. Ball can't even create much offense for himself. And Rose is getting about the same per game numbers in 8 less minutes with more efficient shooting.

Again, not taking a shot at Ball. Just top 10 pg is a huge stretch. Bulls have a 2 headed snake at the 1. DD and ZL are tearing it up. And they are well coached.

 

[knoxville7]

I don't really care how you rank them, just curious as to who you do find to be at least as good as Lonzo. I do think Lonzo has performed his role very well to start this year so he's definitely been good in that context.

What are your thoughts on Malcom Brogdon? I think he has also played quite well to start the year. Or does a player have to be on a playoff ranked team to be considered?

Brogdon is a really good player, but is he having a better season than ball? Not really. He’s shooting about 28% from 3 on almost 6 attempts per game. Taking that many and missing on that many isn’t helping your team win games. He does do some other things well, I’ll grant you that…but he’s not the defender Lonzo is either.

And the record has little to do with it

 

[knoxville7]

Roles on a team matters. Westbrook as your 1st or 2nd scoring option kind of works. Lonzo in that role, on the other hand, doesn't. Would the Lakers have a better record right now with Ball in Westbrook's place? I kind of doubt it. Not saying he has no upside over Westbrook. But you shouldn't let 16 games dictate your feelings. Being a top 20 point guard is about as good as being a top 10 center. The position is full of very good players. I mean, Rose is another example. He's become a good defender himself and is winning games for NY off the bench. I have a difficult time saying Ball is a better player than Rose. Ball can't even create much offense for himself. And Rose is getting about the same per game numbers in 8 less minutes with more efficient shooting.

Again, not taking a shot at Ball. Just top 10 pg is a huge stretch. Bulls have a 2 headed snake at the 1. DD and ZL are tearing it up. And they are well coached.

I would argue Westbrook as a #1 or #2 scoring option has never really worked on any team he’s been on. Example being last season when he was beals number 2 guy.

you’re entitled to your opinion. Some of it has validity, some of it doesn’t IMO

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I can agree Lamelo can get his own shot easier than Lonzo can. That’s the one area where Lamelo is clearly better than Lonzo. And I’m fine if people want to “rank” Lamelo ahead of Lonzo. I think they are on pretty equal footing myself.

I think a lot of it comes down to roster construction, and what a roster needs more of. In the hornets case, Lamelo is definitely more valuable than Lonzo because they need that #1 scoring option

The bulls roster, I think Lonzo works better than Lamelo would. The bulls need Lonzos defense and his ability to start fast breaks(yes Lamelo is good at that too, but not on Lonzos level). The bulls need those intangibles more than a guy that can create his own shot

I just don’t see 10 point guards playing better than Lonzo has THIS season

a good example of what I’m talking about would be Damian Lillard. Almost everyone would “rank” him ahead of Lonzo, yet Lonzo has vastly outplayed Lillard this season. Lillard is shooting under 40% and like 27% from 3. Is he a great player? Of course. Has he played better than Lonzo this season? Absolutely not

LaMelo is very clearly better than Lonzo. The only thing that Lonzo is better at is defense. Across the board, there's absolutely nothing that Lonzo does better than him other than that.

There are a lot of guys this season who have struggled offensively because of the rule changes when it comes to initiating contact to draw fouls. I think the offensive players are adjusting to it slowly and are becoming more efficient again as they adapt their game. Harden and Lillard definitely fall into that category. So does Trae Young. Struggles or not, you would have to be insane not to trade Lonzo straight up for any of those three guys.

 

[Scoot26]

I think I tend to agree with Rami on this argument for the most part.

But, we can all certainly agree to disagree on it. It's a bit subjective.

 

[Zion]

This team is so FUN. I can't remember feeling this way about a Chicago team since 2011-2012. That's the year we signed Rip Hamilton to replace Bogans. That was also the season Rose tore his ACL.

I'm so used to mediocrity and disappointment that it feels weird watching a Bulls team and just having fun. I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop.

 

[knoxville7]

LaMelo is very clearly better than Lonzo. The only thing that Lonzo is better at is defense. Across the board, there's absolutely nothing that Lonzo does better than him other than that.

There are a lot of guys this season who have struggled offensively because of the rule changes when it comes to initiating contact to draw fouls. I think the offensive players are adjusting to it slowly and are becoming more efficient again as they adapt their game. Harden and Lillard definitely fall into that category. So does Trae Young. Struggles or not, you would have to be insane not to trade Lonzo straight up for any of those three guys.

Except the numbers say Lonzo is also a better 3 point shooter and has a higher true shooting % than Lamelo.

Add that to being a better defender and just as good of a passer, and it’s fair to say Lamelo and Lonzo are pretty equal in terms of overall value. Again, the roles an individual roster needs plays into the preference of which you’d want IMO

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I would argue Westbrook as a #1 or #2 scoring option has never really worked on any team he’s been on. Example being last season when he was beals number 2 guy.

you’re entitled to your opinion. Some of it has validity, some of it doesn’t IMO

Westbrook is a guy with so much upside when he is playing well, and so much downside when he's not. There's a lot of highs and a lot of lows. The thing with Lonzo is that he is consistent. You're not going to get the dominant games ever from him like he would with Westbrook. But he is someone you can count on to be dependable every night and not shoot you out of games. I can at least understand the logic of wanting a guy like Lonzo Ball over Russell Westbrook based on that. Westbrook is like Allen Iverson in the sense that he would never accept a lesser role on a team and is stubborn as a mule. But Lonzo couldn't even dream of lacing up his sneakers when it comes to talent. Let's not forget that the guy has averaged a triple double the last three of four seasons, and in his MVP year he took a pretty mediocre OKC team to a higher seed in the playoffs.