2023 trade season

knoxville7

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Might not be a bad idea to add Stroman to that list. Sure, it won't be a popular move but he'll be looking for #1 money and until this year he's never been close to a #1. The Cubs won't extend him because they have to believe this season is an outlier and rightfully so. He's never been anything but a .500 pitcher in the past.....he'll also be 33 this time next season, so the time is ripe to move him. His value will never be higher.
Stroman would be a tough one to the clubhouse to trade in the middle of a division race.

I could go either way in regards to trading him. But, if they decide to not trade him they damn well better get the extension done before he hits the open market
 

Diehardfan

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Stroman would be a tough one to the clubhouse to trade in the middle of a division race.

I could go either way in regards to trading him. But, if they decide to not trade him they damn well better get the extension done before he hits the open market
You're right. This division is pathetically weak and winable.....I mean the Reds are smoking but so was Pittsburgh, the same thing could happen to them that happened to the Pirates. Trading Stroman would be like dumping the season. I get that. He is their top starter....maybe their best pitcher but he is a #3, maybe a #2 at best and paying him #1 money could be financial disaster. And what happens if he goes back to being a .500 starter after signing a big deal? Looking at his history....that would probably be a likely scenario.
 

Castor76

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You're right. This division is pathetically weak and winable.....I mean the Reds are smoking but so was Pittsburgh, the same thing could happen to them that happened to the Pirates. Trading Stroman would be like dumping the season. I get that. He is their top starter....maybe their best pitcher but he is a #3, maybe a #2 at best and paying him #1 money could be financial disaster. And what happens if he goes back to being a .500 starter after signing a big deal? Looking at his history....that would probably be a likely scenario.

I think we know most likely after the next 3 weeks what direction that team is going to go. I'm an idiot just speculating, but I think if the team is doing well over the next 20 games then the Front Office pretty much needs to get into extension mode with him because the choices at SP aren't that deep and the money will be flying otherwise. And something to keep in mind deals of 25M AAV and north for pitchers haven't been too common the past few years with only 8 in total in the past 4 off seasons. Would 115M over 4 years or 140M over 5 years be a deal breaker? It would take his AAV up about 5M.

I think it's going to be very interesting to see how Ohtani's deal is set up. Will he and his team see a lesson in having a contract so large it hinders a team's flexibility to put pieces around him much like Trout's deal has for LAA, if they see it that way? Would he want to sign a record deal only to defer a large portion of it as has become popular with some players and teams?
 

TL1961

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You're right. This division is pathetically weak and winable.....I mean the Reds are smoking but so was Pittsburgh, the same thing could happen to them that happened to the Pirates. Trading Stroman would be like dumping the season. I get that. He is their top starter....maybe their best pitcher but he is a #3, maybe a #2 at best and paying him #1 money could be financial disaster. And what happens if he goes back to being a .500 starter after signing a big deal? Looking at his history....that would probably be a likely scenario.
Stroman is leading the league in ERA and quality starts. Why is he a number three?
 

Chicagosports89

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Morel is a liability defensively. Why is he some sure thing at 3rd?
What? Madrigal isn't a sure thing at 3rd but he's a better option than wisdom. Madrigal should be an everyday 2nd baseman somewhere but not for the cubs
 

Diehardfan

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Stroman is leading the league in ERA and quality starts. Why is he a number three?
The last time I checked I think was like 72-71 lifetime. He's having a year. Nice to see. BUT, do you want to give a 33 year old guy like 20 to 25 mill for multiple years because he had one great season out of 8? I'm pretty certain that's what the Cubs are thinking and I can't say that I blame them. With his value probably maxed, it seems like it would be a pretty good time to trade him.
 

TL1961

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What? Madrigal isn't a sure thing at 3rd but he's a better option than wisdom. Madrigal should be an everyday 2nd baseman somewhere but not for the cubs
I have no idea what your response means but as I am replying Madrigal just missed what should have been a sure out.
 

Castor76

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The last time I checked I think was like 72-71 lifetime. He's having a year. Nice to see. BUT, do you want to give a 33 year old guy like 20 to 25 mill for multiple years because he had one great season out of 8? I'm pretty certain that's what the Cubs are thinking and I can't say that I blame them. With his value probably maxed, it seems like it would be a pretty good time to trade him.

I understand that line of thinking. Now what do you replace him with? There will be at best 2 better options in FA, and that's mostly because of what Ohtani brings as a bat as well.

Sure, if things don't progress well in a negotiation for an extension, the Cubs should definitely trade him as opposed to him opting out and probably getting 0 back because I don't know if teams even get a comp pick when guys opt out. I think Baltimore would be very interested in him as SP help seems to be their #1 need as a playoff contender. And if he did opt out, the Cubs would then have over 100M to pursue FA, with probably about half that going after one.

Cubs have 30 games until they meet Cincy again. 17 wins I think is the bare minimum to consider being a buyer at the break.
 

Chicagosports89

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I have no idea what your response means but as I am replying Madrigal just missed what should have been a sure out.
Yeah I don't really know what you were going on about with Morel for either. So I guess we are on the same page
 

DrGonzo

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What? Madrigal isn't a sure thing at 3rd but he's a better option than wisdom. Madrigal should be an everyday 2nd baseman somewhere but not for the cubs
They are just a better team with Madrigal at third than Wisdom. I think he could be their starting 3rd baseman next year but they need to make up for his lack of power somewhere.
 

Castor76

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I think the Cubs should go after Jeimer Candelario for Washington. He is a pure rental for 2023, is on par with Mads defensively, and has 15-20 HR pop with similar BA and OBP.
 

beckdawg

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On the spending side, I’ll disagree. Cubs signed 10 FA. The bottom 6 “value” contracts were Mancini, Barnhart, Fulmer, Boxberger, Nittoli and Hosmer….all poop. I find no value in such poop.

Think you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying value signings are universally good. They often are very much you get what you pay for. I'm saying the difference between let's say Hosmer and any big ticket FA you want to name is if Hosmer is shit you just cut him and you aren't out much. If a value contract hits you come off looking really well. I'm not sure i'd term Bellinger a "value" contract because he's kinda making decent money but to illustrate the point, if he's bad cubs are on the hook for 1 year. If he's good and the cubs are shit he's a valuable trade piece. And ideally you want him to be good and the cubs to be good but from a pure game theory standpoint that signing is often far superior to just throwing lots of money on a multi year deal at someone.

It's a lot easier to do this with relievers to be honest. For example, cubs signed Mark Leiter to a minor league contract and look what he's become for them. He's given them roughly 1 fWAR over 100 innings the past two seasons making the league minimum so you're talking like $1.5 mil for the two seasons when typically $8-9 mil per WAR is the expectation.

As for the higher priced FA, i mean sure it's easy to point to dansby playing well and say it's the way to go but most viewed him as the 4th best option in FA. Correa has a 94 wRC+ right now. Xander is playing ok but you'd be expecting more than his 108 wRC+ on the contract he got after roughly 3 seasons over 130 wRC+. And Trea turner has been pretty horrible with a 81 wRC+. Ironically, dansby's defense makes him a bit more steady since he only had a 116 wRC+ last season and the minor fall of so far to 109 hasn't really mattered though the back years of the contract could look worse if the bat trends down anymore and age hurts his defense.

Even though I'm less down on Taillon than a lot of people I think he's a great example of what I'm saying here if you want to believe he wont turn things around. Cubs gave him a 4 year deal because he was viewed as a "safe" signing who maybe had more in the tank. Issue is now that he hasn't performed well you really can't get rid of his contract the same way you can cutting hosmer. You sorta just have to ride it out for a year or two at the very least. And with bigger contracts like say Trea Turner if that turns bad you're very fucked.

Ultimately that's why i'm saying you build through player development. If you're needing to buy 1-3 starters or middle of the order hitters you're already behind the eight ball. Ideally, you should be buying relievers and like back of the order hitters/bench bats with upside as your value plays. So for example, hosmer being shit doesn't *really* matter if you've already built a decent core of your line up. You're just another team looking to buy a rental 1B in july which typically isn't very expensive. You may not be the 2001 M's with a team like that but let's be honest. most teams in most years aren't even 100 win teams.
 

TL1961

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Yeah I don't really know what you were going on about with Morel for either. So I guess we are on the same page
I mentioned that Morel is defensivelychallenged, and you responded that Mardrigal deserves to start at 2nd for someone. ??
 

Chicagosports89

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I mentioned that Morel is defensivelychallenged, and you responded that Mardrigal deserves to start at 2nd for someone. ??
Our conversation was about Madrigal, so I continued talking about Madrigal
 

TL1961

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They are just a better team with Madrigal at third than Wisdom. I think he could be their starting 3rd baseman next year but they need to make up for his lack of power somewhere.
I would definitely like to see them replace Wisdom, but if Nick Madrigal is your every day 3rd baseman, you're in a world of hurt.
 

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I would definitely like to see them replace Wisdom, but if Nick Madrigal is your every day 3rd baseman, you're in a world of hurt.
Before the the NL got the DL Madrigal would have been the perfect utility infielder/pinch hitter/as he seems to always find a way to get on base in clutch situations and at least he doesn't strike out. Hard to justify stashing a utility guy on the bench now I guess.
 

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I would definitely like to see them replace Wisdom, but if Nick Madrigal is your every day 3rd baseman, you're in a world of hurt.
Hardly. The Cubs won a WS with mediocre play at 3B with Bryant and they weren't the first team to do it. Third base defense will usually not kill you. You need to remember that teams do not have wall to wall GG play....everyone has a hole somewhere. If I had my choice of where that hole would be, if you have to have it....I'd say LF or 3B. Now Madrigal being a slap hitter in a spot that usually supplies power could be a problem if the power doesn't come another position but being a mediocre defender probably wouldn't be a game breaker.
 

TL1961

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Hardly. The Cubs won a WS with mediocre play at 3B with Bryant and they weren't the first team to do it. Third base defense will usually not kill you. You need to remember that teams do not have wall to wall GG play....everyone has a hole somewhere. If I had my choice of where that hole would be, if you have to have it....I'd say LF or 3B. Now Madrigal being a slap hitter in a spot that usually supplies power could be a problem if the power doesn't come another position but being a mediocre defender probably wouldn't be a game breaker.
Bryant was the league MVP. That’s not mediocre.

You’re talking D only? I am talking all around play. Madrigal, especially considering D (which is certainly not at Bryant’s level), is mediocre at best.

If talking, D only, mediocre, may not kill you, but mediocre or worse D, combined with a complete lack of power and run production will kill you.
 

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