31 Americans Killed In Helicopter Crash In Afghanistan,

BigPete

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OY! Common sense would preclude me from giving this a fair hearing.



1. Didn't Congressional leaders view pictures of the corpse? Plus I believe Joe Biden did too - you know he wouldn't be able to keep his yapper shut.

2. Wouldn't Bin Laden like nothing better than to pop up and embarrass the US if he were still alive?

3. What if UBL was dead all along and this was just propaganda? Used to boost our spirits back home during a recession and to break the spirits of those fighting us abroad.
 

bubbleheadchief

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No problem. I have actually made the mistake myself before. I only made a point to say it because the book I am reading made a big point about it. "Hunting al Qaeda" by Anonymous. It is about members of the US Army Special Forces Reserves from Virginia. So it is a big deal to them of course.



Funny part is that they made a big declaration that early on in Afghanistan, the SEALs were there conducting missions but those guys were so out of the element that they screwed up many missions. Their typical AOR is the water and no further inland than the high water mark. At least it was until 2001...



I still want to know more about some SEALs and Afghans coming to the 'rescue' of Army Rangers...who then had to go rescue the SEALs at the crash site. Sounds like a lot of missing information in the news report. The SEALs might have been a QRF for the region or they were more likely in bound to the target site that the Rangers had secured to do a snatch and grab of an HVT. That would be a real mission for a flight of SEAL Team Six sailors, 6 Afghan special operations troops, and a dog handler and his/her dog.

I can tell you from personal experience this is a very untrue statement.
 

BigPete

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Fair enough, but I am talking about what they are supposed to be per their own mission statement. You are right that for sometimes they have been dropped far inland for a misssion. The were running ops in the balkans, far inland.

I don't think it makes sense though...being an army guy and all.



EDIT: I guess I was wrong. I went and looked at the US Navy SEALs web page and they specifically list capture of high value targets as a core mission. You could assume that means anywhere they are hiding.

I still think it is bunk though, being an army guy and all. Sailors should stick to the sea
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EbonyRaptor

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3. What if UBL was dead all along and this was just propaganda? Used to boost our spirits back home during a recession and to break the spirits of those fighting us abroad.



Yeah ... and what if the aliens that Bush hired to fly their spaceships into the World Trade Center on 9/11 came back to life and abducted Bin Laden? Yeah ... what about that?
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BigPete

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I didn't say anything crazy like that. I just said what if he was killed at Tora Bora? What if this is a ruse. I never said 9/11 was faked.
 

Variable

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Yeah ... and what if the aliens that Bush hired to fly their spaceships into the World Trade Center on 9/11 came back to life and abducted Bin Laden? Yeah ... what about that?
<

I don't get why that would be so far beyond them. They've sent people off to fight and die in multiple wars knowingly based on lies and false pretexts. Why would using bin Laden in that way be so impossible to comprehend?
 

EbonyRaptor

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I didn't say anything crazy like that. I just said what if he was killed at Tora Bora? What if this is a ruse. I never said 9/11 was faked.



OK - ya got me there. My crazy was a little more crazy than your crazy. OK, a lot more crazy. But, with any conspiracy theory, the more people supposedly involved and the more complex it is, the crazier it is. And with a conspiracy theory that has Bin Laden already dead before the Seal Team claimed they killed him last month, there would have to be an enormous number of co-conspirators, including enemies of this country who would have discernable interest in going along with the ruse. So yeah ... it gets filed in the crazy bin.
 

BigPete

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Oh man. If you only knew the lies and half truths this country has told in the last 100 years alone....



Still think there are WMD in Iraq? PS there never was and NO ONE told Bush/Cheney that. They made it up.
 

bubbleheadchief

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I don't get why that would be so far beyond them. They've sent people off to fight and die in multiple wars knowingly based on lies and false pretexts. Why would using bin Laden in that way be so impossible to comprehend?

Why is everything a conspiracy with you? All I can see come from your keyboard is that anything remotely connected to the gov't is a lie and a ruse perpetrated by the big bad corporations that own the gov't to further their bottom line. Please don't ever forget the combination to the locked cupboard where you hide your coffee Mel, as I am afraid you would really do something drastic.
 

bubbleheadchief

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Oh man. If you only knew the lies and half truths this country has told in the last 100 years alone....



Still think there are WMD in Iraq? PS there never was and NO ONE told Bush/Cheney that. They made it up.

And you have true unadulterated proof of this? You were one of the analysts that was part of the multitude of teams that scoured the satelitte imagery related to this and can say unequivically, no one saw anything? I was a comms specialist, you were an imagery analyst, and I am sure you have talked to several people, as I have that were "in the know" that "knew the truth." Seriously there are enough stories out there, and every one of them of the "he said to her, who said to that person, that heard it from him" variety, that no one knows the complete truth anymore.



No gov't or leadreship of any type, including Mommy and Daddy, are truthful about everything. You and I both know that there really are things out there that does not need to be disseminated to the general public, simply becasue they really dont need to know, and it could cause grave and serious harm to the United States and its people.
 

BigPete

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And you have true unadulterated proof of this? You were one of the analysts that was part of the multitude of teams that scoured the satelitte imagery related to this and can say unequivically, no one saw anything? I was a comms specialist, you were an imagery analyst, and I am sure you have talked to several people, as I have that were "in the know" that "knew the truth." Seriously there are enough stories out there, and every one of them of the "he said to her, who said to that person, that heard it from him" variety, that no one knows the complete truth anymore.



No gov't or leadership of any type, including Mommy and Daddy, are truthful about everything. You and I both know that there really are things out there that does not need to be disseminated to the general public, simply because they really don't need to know, and it could cause grave and serious harm to the United States and its people.

Yes, I personally scanned lots and lots of imagery and saw jack squat. I also worked amongst many SIGINTers, HUMINTers, and planners that never saw anything. I hate to use a Hollywood movie because it is sorely lacking in details and quite fictitious but the Matt Damon movie Green Zone gets the point across pretty well.



The fact that Cheney/Bush/Powell threw our community under the bus is criminal. We have this great network of spies, but they fucked up, so blame them. Why would you say that??? Isn't that undermining our effectiveness to the public and the rest of the world? I still want to kick those ******* in the nuts for that. They made it up, and that is bullshit.



For the record I am not saying anything that hasn't been said by dozens of people much higher up the food chain than I will ever get. People in THAT White House in fact, have written plenty of books now proclaiming what I said above.
 

BigPete

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Why is everything a conspiracy with you? All I can see come from your keyboard is that anything remotely connected to the gov't is a lie and a ruse perpetrated by the big bad corporations that own the gov't to further their bottom line. Please don't ever forget the combination to the locked cupboard where you hide your coffee Mel, as I am afraid you would really do something drastic.

LOL



Jerry: What do we know? If I know what we know then I could tell you what we know and if anyone else knows!
 

bubbleheadchief

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Yes, I personally scanned lots and lots of imagery and saw jack squat. I also worked amongst many SIGINTers, HUMINTers, and planners that never saw anything. I hate to use a Hollywood movie because it is sorely lacking in details and quite fictitious but the Matt Damon movie Green Zone gets the point across pretty well.



The fact that Cheney/Bush/Powell threw our community under the bus is criminal. We have this great network of spies, but they fucked up, so blame them. Why would you say that??? Isn't that undermining our effectiveness to the public and the rest of the world? I still want to kick those ******* in the nuts for that. They made it up, and that is bullshit.



For the record I am not saying anything that hasn't been said by dozens of people much higher up the food chain than I will ever get. People in THAT White House in fact, have written plenty of books now proclaiming what I said above.

I agree that the administration throwing the entire intel community under the bus was wrong, but you and I both know it is very easy to write a book that is full of sour grapes. Especially when it has become the popular "in" thing to do, bash an administration or something.



And again...I redacted this part, but I will put in a vastly changed statement, I also know that "no evidence whatsoever of WMDs" is not a fully true statement.
 

Variable

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OK - ya got me there. My crazy was a little more crazy than your crazy. OK, a lot more crazy. But, with any conspiracy theory, the more people supposedly involved and the more complex it is, the crazier it is. And with a conspiracy theory that has Bin Laden already dead before the Seal Team claimed they killed him last month, there would have to be an enormous number of co-conspirators, including enemies of this country who would have discernable interest in going along with the ruse. So yeah ... it gets filed in the crazy bin.

Actually you'd probably be surprised to know that a lot of the time, it's the opposite.Sometimes, in certain cases almost exclusively, it's the only way it works. How complex would be too complex or how many people would you say would be too many people in keeping with it still being considered "realistic" and plausible to happen? A hundred? Couple hundred? Maybe even a couple thousand people? That's probably pushing it for a lot of people that believe that way, but it's not even close.



One of the most amazing and,at the same time, horrifying achievements of all time in our history took up to 130,000 people, almost all of whom not knowing exactly what they were working towards or what exact purpose they were serving for almost their entire length of time serving it in undertaking a project that took place all over the country and overseas over the better part of a decade and of which details of weren't known for about another quarter of a century later. The Manhattan Project, by numbers of people involved, is the single biggest provable conspiracy theory to this point. But what it's a better example of is compartmentalization. Large groups of people not knowing exactly what they are involved and to what goals they are helping to achieve by their involvement.



No gov't or leadreship of any type, including Mommy and Daddy, are truthful about everything. You and I both know that there really are things out there that does not need to be disseminated to the general public, simply becasue they really dont need to know, and it could cause grave and serious harm to the United States and its people.



When you keep saying things like this I can only hope you don't fully understand the kind of actions and lies and the consequences of those actions and lies you are defending, because you're talking about a whole country full of people that shouldn't really know what some of their friends, their moms, dads, brothers, sisters are really dying for. Maybe you misinterpreted something somewhere along the line, but you keep giving this same excuse just about every single time this sort of discussion comes up, and all I keep thinking when I hear that, every single time, is: Where's the line in that? How far do you take that? Because Pistol Pete here wasn't discussing something like training exercises for top secret SEAL members or their strategies or protocols or anything like that that we really don't need to know. He was talking about reasons to go into war and what we were being sold on to support it.



You think maybe it's gotten too far when citizens of the United States are being harmed by the consequences and the actions of those who aren't being "completely truthful"? Maaaaaybe when we've got 10 years worth of it (from the initial alleged pursuit of one man/group) and countless amount of soldier's and innocent people's lives alike destroyed and/or altered forever in so many different ways we can't even comprehend it, especially when factoring in what their future is or what happens to their families, that maybe just MAYBE there is some information we really ought to know about things that weren't "completely truthful" all those years ago? Think maybe that's reason enough? Think maybe it's simply the humane thing to do instead of pretending you're doing the humane thing by not wanting to know what's really the truth?



If not, what it's going to take? What's it going to take for us to be allowed this "hallowed right" of being able to question and to be able to demand things that WE NEED TO KNOW on something that's making as big an impact on people's lives as this War on Terror is without being seen as crazy? Another 50,000 dead to get us up to around the KIA count like in (another war fought on false pretenses) Vietnam? Is there a magic number that's counting down that we have to wait for? 5 years from now? Another 10? More? You tell me, what will it take?
 

BigPete

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I agree that the administration throwing the entire intel community under the bus was wrong, but you and I both know it is very easy to write a book that is full of sour grapes. Especially when it has become the popular "in" thing to do, bash an administration or something.



And again...I redacted this part, but I will put in a vastly changed statement, I also know that "no evidence whatsoever of WMDs" is not a fully true statement.

You are right sir. There was a picture of a semi truck that may or may not have been a chemical weapons delivery vehicle. The there was a manifest from some small African nation with yellow cake on it. Oh and the receipt for some aluminum tubes.



I definitely would have invaded a sovereign nation and killed tens of thousands over that.
 

bubbleheadchief

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You are right sir. There was a picture of a semi truck that may or may not have been a chemical weapons delivery vehicle. The there was a manifest from some small African nation with yellow cake on it. Oh and the receipt for some aluminum tubes.



I definitely would have invaded a sovereign nation and killed tens of thousands over that.

LOL....yup, that amongst others.
 

bubbleheadchief

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I forgot about the he said she said that bin Laden and Hussein were *** lovers or some shit like that...

I thought that UBL and Saddam's boys were part of a wife swapping group actually.
 

BigPete

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I thought that UBL and Saddam's boys were part of a wife swapping group actually.

I wouldn't be surprised about that. Rich, chauvenistic men have been known to hang out time from time.



For the record, I am very happy that Saddam and his turd sons got what they deserved. Especially Uday. Don't ever mistake my ire for the 'why/how' we went over there to mean that I am not happy that we did.
 

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