31 Americans Killed In Helicopter Crash In Afghanistan,

bubbleheadchief

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Actually you'd probably be surprised to know that a lot of the time, it's the opposite.Sometimes, in certain cases almost exclusively, it's the only way it works. How complex would be too complex or how many people would you say would be too many people in keeping with it still being considered "realistic" and plausible to happen? A hundred? Couple hundred? Maybe even a couple thousand people? That's probably pushing it for a lot of people that believe that way, but it's not even close.



One of the most amazing and,at the same time, horrifying achievements of all time in our history took up to 130,000 people, almost all of whom not knowing exactly what they were working towards or what exact purpose they were serving for almost their entire length of time serving it in undertaking a project that took place all over the country and overseas over the better part of a decade and of which details of weren't known for about another quarter of a century later. The Manhattan Project, by numbers of people involved, is the single biggest provable conspiracy theory to this point. But what it's a better example of is compartmentalization. Large groups of people not knowing exactly what they are involved and to what goals they are helping to achieve by their involvement.







When you keep saying things like this I can only hope you don't fully understand the kind of actions and lies and the consequences of those actions and lies you are defending, because you're talking about a whole country full of people that shouldn't really know what some of their friends, their moms, dads, brothers, sisters are really dying for. Maybe you misinterpreted something somewhere along the line, but you keep giving this same excuse just about every single time this sort of discussion comes up, and all I keep thinking when I hear that, every single time, is: Where's the line in that? How far do you take that? Because Pistol Pete here wasn't discussing something like training exercises for top secret SEAL members or their strategies or protocols or anything like that that we really don't need to know. He was talking about reasons to go into war and what we were being sold on to support it.



You think maybe it's gotten too far when citizens of the United States are being harmed by the consequences and the actions of those who aren't being "completely truthful"? Maaaaaybe when we've got 10 years worth of it (from the initial alleged pursuit of one man/group) and countless amount of soldier's and innocent people's lives alike destroyed and/or altered forever in so many different ways we can't even comprehend it, especially when factoring in what their future is or what happens to their families, that maybe just MAYBE there is some information we really ought to know about things that weren't "completely truthful" all those years ago? Think maybe that's reason enough? Think maybe it's simply the humane thing to do instead of pretending you're doing the humane thing by not wanting to know what's really the truth?



If not, what it's going to take? What's it going to take for us to be allowed this "hallowed right" of being able to question and to be able to demand things that WE NEED TO KNOW on something that's making as big an impact on people's lives as this War on Terror is without being seen as crazy? Another 50,000 dead to get us up to around the KIA count like in (another war fought on false pretenses) Vietnam? Is there a magic number that's counting down that we have to wait for? 5 years from now? Another 10? More? You tell me, what will it take?

I want to applaud you on this well thought out reply, it was very impressive, yet some how I feel I have read alot of this before, just worded differently, from a different time period.



I made two statements, every gov't or person of authority (including Mommy and Daddy, to protect their child) lies, and that there really are things out there that dont need public dissemination. It's funny how you want to jump on the second half of my statement and turn it once again into an anti-war/anti-govt diareaha of the mouth session. The only thing I said to you in recent history, because I was aksed to quit making comments about a certain persons posts, because it was obvious our views differed, was a semi rheotrical question, and yes a childish jab at you with the Conspiracy Theory reference. The second part I really was talking more about how information is gathered, various technologies used, research and development of weapons, tactics so on and so forth, and yes even some things that could very easliy have put this country into another armed conflict.

I made a comment to something Pete said, something I know to be not completely truthful, to which him and I are still poking at, and actually able to have fun with it as we do. Yet you again want to turn it into, as I said before,an anti-war/anti-govt diatribe with the same lines I listened to as a kid my sons age when I was out and about with my Mom, while my Dad was overseas participating in VietNam.

One thing I want to get straight with you right now, BOY, dont ever dare to ask me if I understand what the consequences are for the Gov'ts actions or "lies" or what it means to sacrifce anything. It's easy for you to sit there and spout your question everything rhetoric, when you've never left home. You've got every right as an American Citizen to do so, but till you've gotten off your ass and gone out there and seen the real world, and been a part of it, like Pete has, or I have, don't presume to think I or we dont understand the consequences.
 

bubbleheadchief

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I wouldn't be surprised about that. Rich, chauvenistic men have been known to hang out time from time.



For the record, I am very happy that Saddam and his turd sons got what they deserved. Especially Uday. Don't ever mistake my ire for the 'why/how' we went over there to mean that I am not happy that we did.

Ditto. I never thought that at all. If you read my reply to Vari, hopefully you will see that.
 

BigPete

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Ditto. I never thought that at all. If you read my reply to Vari, hopefully you will see that.

I know. I was just throwing it out there. I would have been okay with Bush and co. telling everyone that we were sick of babysitting that evil twit and we would like to be a little closer to Iran to babysit those evil twits. I am even okay knowing that a planned bonus of the invasion was to lure, snare, and kill lots of young zealots on a better turf. It wasn't easy fighting on the streets of IZ but it is much harder to fight in the mountains and valleys of AF.
 

JOVE23

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Is it bad that I'm okay with us being the evil empire if we really are?
 

BigPete

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Is it bad that I'm okay with us being the evil empire if we really are?

No. Please go pray and ask for forgiveness.



I would be totally cool with US being more like modern day Germany. They have their shit together, help when asked, and still get their voice heard by all their neighbors. Plus, the place is beautiful and full of great food and beer!!!!
 

jaxhawksfan

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Damn. Go away for a couple days and things explode. My original post was kind of toungue in cheek because I was saying 9-11 was not an inside job in another thread. Apparently ebonyraptor didn't read that thread.
 

Variable

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One thing I want to get straight with you right now, BOY, dont ever dare to ask me if I understand what the consequences are for the Gov'ts actions or "lies" or what it means to sacrifce anything. It's easy for you to sit there and spout your question everything rhetoric, when you've never left home. You've got every right as an American Citizen to do so, but till you've gotten off your ass and gone out there and seen the real world, and been a part of it, like Pete has, or I have, don't presume to think I or we dont understand the consequences.



Like I said, I don't know if something was misinterpreted or what, I can only go on that you've said almost that exact reasoning before when this discussion comes up, about what we should or shouldn't know and the consequences of it. You've been very vague when you say things like:

....and yes even some things that could very easliy have put this country into another armed conflict.



I don't know how to take that, that's why I'm asking you. Are you saying the consequences of finding out that maybe we aren't in these wars for the reasons we were told/sold on outweigh the consequences of not wanting to know, or rather not being allowed to know, "for our own good" and staying in war that in it's name alone promotes the idea that it will be everlasting, never ending, a continuing cycle of death and destruction? Because that's what it sounds like when you post things like that. Where's the breaking point?



And I've held off on this ever since you, and others, have been blasting me with it. For personal choice, because I'm not open about what I do or who I am or where I've been or whatever, I don't like things like that to "bolster" one's self, specifically in this discussion. Because the vast majority of people who do won't have your or Pete's resume, they just want to know that we aren't being lied to and that people aren't being killed and sacrificing their lives for reasons other than what they've been told and I believe that to be among the most basic, humane things you should be entitled to know when things get to a point where you're bombing cities and innocent people are being destroyed left and right. And unfortunately it doesn't seem like that's the case (and it wouldn't be the first time or the second or hundredth time) it looks more and more that we have been lied to, that we have been killing and being killed and going to war for other motives. And it's just not right.
 

EbonyRaptor

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Actually you'd probably be surprised to know that a lot of the time, it's the opposite.



The Manhattan Project, by numbers of people involved, is the single biggest provable conspiracy theory to this point.



I won't try to pretend that I know more than I know. I just try to use common sense. Your example of the Manhatten Project is a great example of compartmentalization. But with that example, it isn't the same level of colaboration that would be required to pull off the hypothetical being discussed. In this situation, enemies would need to be co-conspirators, which in and of itself may not preclude the plausibility, but my common sense cannot imagine how Al Quada and/or the Taliban would benefit from entering into this arrangement with whomever on "our side" would be pulling these strings.



I could be wrong. I can be naive. But until someone addresses my common sense skepticism with something more concrete than the smoke and mirrors of spy movies, I'll remain unconvinced.
 

EbonyRaptor

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Damn. Go away for a couple days and things explode. My original post was kind of toungue in cheek because I was saying 9-11 was not an inside job in another thread. Apparently ebonyraptor didn't read that thread.



Sorry, I'm new to the neighborhood. Please excuse my blundering in ... I'll try to lighten up a little until I start appreciating and understanding the personalities.



My intention is debate, not pissing people off. I'm a stubborn knucklehead and by the looks of things, I should feel right at home here.
<
 

EbonyRaptor

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And I've held off on this ever since you, and others, have been blasting me with it. For personal choice, because I'm not open about what I do or who I am or where I've been or whatever, I don't like things like that to "bolster" one's self, specifically in this discussion. Because the vast majority of people who do won't have your or Pete's resume, they just want to know that we aren't being lied to and that people aren't being killed and sacrificing their lives for reasons other than what they've been told and I believe that to be among the most basic, humane things you should be entitled to know when things get to a point where you're bombing cities and innocent people are being destroyed left and right. And unfortunately it doesn't seem like that's the case (and it wouldn't be the first time or the second or hundredth time) it looks more and more that we have been lied to, that we have been killing and being killed and going to war for other motives. And it's just not right.



Hey Variable, I've got mixed emotions over Iraq/Afganistan. I don't have any inside info and I didn't serve in the military (the draft was abolished in '72, the year I turned draft eligible). I see both sides of the argument for projecting US military might, but what I don't agree with and will never fully forgive our government for is the rules of engagement used to constrain our military. It puts our service men and women in needless danger and, to me, that is just plain wrong. Either fight to win or get out. I worry for my daughter who is currently serving in Afganistan. Her job is to escort supply convoys and her vehicle (an MRAP) has already been hit with a double IED. Thank God she and her soldiers survived with "only" concussions. There are so many like me - parents, spouces, kids, friends - probably some poster on this board, that can only sit back in our confort and hope the government is puting our loved ones in danger for the right reasons. My daughter loves our country and serves proudly. God, I hope she is more than a pawn.
 

Variable

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I won't try to pretend that I know more than I know. I just try to use common sense. Your example of the Manhatten Project is a great example of compartmentalization. But with that example, it isn't the same level of colaboration that would be required to pull off the hypothetical being discussed. In this situation, enemies would need to be co-conspirators, which in and of itself may not preclude the plausibility, but my common sense cannot imagine how Al Quada and/or the Taliban would benefit from entering into this arrangement with whomever on "our side" would be pulling these strings.



I could be wrong. I can be naive. But until someone addresses my common sense skepticism with something more concrete than the smoke and mirrors of spy movies, I'll remain unconvinced.



It's tough, and at times frustrating, because there's no way I can magically transplant the culmination of all the time spent in research in reading books, videos, doing interviews, other experiences over the years (some of which have been a complete waste of time but played an important role) that led me to or have forced me to some of the conclusions I've come to in a way that would make it abundantly clear to you as it is to me on these topics and many others. It's simply too much raw information to put down into words on an internet posting of all things (as I've been learning) it's extremely multi-faceted. There is no neat two or three paragraph explanation I can give you that would suddenly be some kind of moment of clarity.



It just would all sound like more nonsense due to some of the probable lifelong views that you may hold on various institutions, ideas, organizations, countries, etc, all of which would first have to be re-evaluated in turn along with a critical re-evaluation of yourself and of your values and of learning how to control ego, which all of that entails is a different story altogether. None of that is easy or done overnight. So right now, what would be common sense to you could be anything but that to me. I can't change something as powerful as that in anyone, it really is up to the individual to make the effort on their own. At best it could intrigue some to further explore for themselves, but there's nothing I can point out to someone who is unconvinced and instantly convince them.



Say if you didn't already know about the Manhattan Project or the atomic bombs and that kind of power, it would sound crazy to you if somebody were to try and explain it. From the outset a lot of it sounds like something out of a James Bond flick. You would disallow for it to be even possible, you would do what you did with the bin Laden thing, you would exaggerate and mock just the mere consideration of such an event or idea. It's like self defense.



But I understand, I get it, it was like that for me too. It is tough to separate, on the surface, what sounds like reality and what sounds like fiction:



Operation CHAOS

Heart attack gun

MK-ULTRA

COINTELPRO

Operation Fast and Furious

Operation Northwoods

Manhattan Project



Just a handful of examples and they all sound like some cheesy code names and bad B movie props, but they're real.
 

EbonyRaptor

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It's tough, and at times frustrating, because there's no way I can magically transplant the culmination of all the time spent in research in reading books, videos, doing interviews, other experiences over the years (some of which have been a complete waste of time but played an important role) that led me to or have forced me to some of the conclusions I've come to in a way that would make it abundantly clear to you as it is to me on these topics and many others. It's simply too much raw information to put down into words on an internet posting of all things (as I've been learning) it's extremely multi-faceted. There is no neat two or three paragraph explanation I can give you that would suddenly be some kind of moment of clarity.



Thank you Variable. That was exceptionally well thought out and well written and I appreciate the time it took out of your life to give to me, a virtual stranger, a genuine explaination of your experiences and position on these matters.



I share your frustration in trying to convey complex matters in this type of forum. You stated it very well that it's highly doubtful minds can be changed and, at best, it may intrigue someone to start their own search, which is no small thing and the best hope of anyone trying to share their knowledge.



I too have spent countless hours researching the things that matter most to me, especially in the last 10-15 years after my kids have grown and left the nest giving me more "me time". I say that not in an attempt to equate my search for knowledge with your's or to deflect in any way to salient point you eloquently made, but rather to support it and let you know I sense in you a kindred spirit interested in honest inquiry and genuine dialogue. At least as much as possible in the blogosphere.
 

jaxhawksfan

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Sorry, I'm new to the neighborhood. Please excuse my blundering in ... I'll try to lighten up a little until I start appreciating and understanding the personalities.



My intention is debate, not pissing people off. I'm a stubborn knucklehead and by the looks of things, I should feel right at home here.
<



Ebony that wasn't a dig at you. I don't think you pissed anyone off. Just stating that you and some others may not have caught my tone in my original response.
 

EbonyRaptor

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Ebony that wasn't a dig at you. I don't think you pissed anyone off. Just stating that you and some others may not have caught my tone in my original response.



No problem - I didn't take it as a dig though, but it's nice of you to say so.



I just know that sometimes it exasperating for a group to have to rehash stuff because some new guy shows up, especially if the new guy just blasts in without spending some time to sit and observe.
 

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