A few thoughts on improvements

[iueyedoc]

This is a very funny place after losses.

 

[Bearly]

1. Play Jon Bostic

Our LBs can't cover anyone anyways at least put someone in at MLB who has some dynamic play making ability and punch.

2. Go Deep Earlier

Things seem to open up the minute we get a pass downfield. Until we do the defense cheats up takes away the short stuff.

Totally agree with these 2. I don't think we need to run much more like Remy says but we are a bit lower as a % than we should be and need to run more early along with those attempts to open things up. We abandon the run early in the game because it's not working, mainly because we aren't stretching the field. I'd like to see Wilson active and get him out there for just a few plays even if he's a one trick pony or decoy for now. Was nice seeing Wooton inside. I'd have used Peppers instead but it seems Corey was stout enough to make a difference.

One thing I really like about earlier games was that we ran more consistently as a percentage throughout the game so if that's part of what Remy means, I agree. The # of runs is less important though I do think we need to keep closer to 40/60 run pass than we have lately.

 

[fenderpfunk]

One thing I learned from yesterday - if Cutler plays well in the 2nd half then DO NOT AND I MEAN DO NOT criticize the offense which includes him for a dismal 1st half. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE FINAL SCORE OF THE GAME. YOU ARE IGNORANT IF YOU THINK THAT. SHUT UP. WHY? JUST BECAUSE. OKAY? GOOD. MEL TUCKER IS TO BLAME FOR OUR INABILITY TO CONVERT A 3RD DOWN AND SCORE POINTS ON OFFENSE IN THE FIRST HALF. RON RIVERA WILL FIX THAT.

 

[remydat]

Seems to be a bit subjective, no? QBs usually don't move toward a DE to avoid a sack, unless they are Rob Johnson or Blaine Gabbert, so I would assume "stepping up in the pocket" would be a pretty standard procedure. I didn't realize every time a QB stepped up in the pocket, he was being forced to throw the ball sooner than he wanted, per your lenghty-yet-repetitive definition of "QB hurry". I guess if you are telling me that every 21 times Cutler steps up in the pocket (i.e. "hurried") he is hit 3 times, that would sound pretty normal. I guess I never thought of the 18 non-hit step up in the pocket plays as hurries.

That must be a revolutionary concept. The NFL's passing pocket used to be like a left paranthesis: (

The tackles hold firm at the ends, while the interior line sags backwards. This new "reverse pocket" model of Kromer's where the tackles drop back and the interior line holds firm is amazing, yet also incredibly logical! I assume most NFL teams will be copying Kromer's model in the near future!

I have no definition of a QB hurry. That term is what teams and stat services use to define when a defender puts pressure on a QB without giving up a hit or sack. Jordan Mills has the 2nd most QB hurries given up in the entire league so it is not really that normal. The No 1 rated LT (Doug Free) has given up 2 sacks, 0 QB hits, and only 4 QB hurries. So basically what that is telling me is that aside from 6 plays the whole year, the QB hasn't had to worry about Free's guy at all. What Mills numbers are telling me is that on 24 plays, the QB has had to do something to address the pressure Mills is giving up.

You are free to consider Mills better because he hasn't given up a sack while Free has given up 2. However, some coaches and people evaluate the OL on more than just sacks. I wasn't aware this was a revolutionary concept. Again, if you have issues with that then take it up with the people who created the statistic.

Most teams value Tackles more than Guards and Centers. Kromer's philosophy puts more of an emphasis on the inside of the line. This has been widely reported. If you have issues with that then Kromer is the guy you want to talk to not me.

 

[remydat]

Totally agree with these 2. I don't think we need to run much more like Remy says but we are a bit lower as a % than we should be and need to run more early along with those attempts to open things up. We abandon the run early in the game because it's not working, mainly because we aren't stretching the field. I'd like to see Wilson active and get him out there for just a few plays even if he's a one trick pony or decoy for now. Was nice seeing Wooton inside. I'd have used Peppers instead but it seems Corey was stout enough to make a difference.

One thing I really like about earlier games was that we ran more consistently as a percentage throughout the game so if that's part of what Remy means, I agree. The # of runs is less important though I do think we need to keep closer to 40/60 run pass than we have lately.

Not suggesting we should be at 50-50. If you look at the earlier games Forte was around 17-20 rushes a game which feels right to me. We have had like 3 or 4 games where he has barely reached 5 rushes at half time. That is not enough especially when Forte is more of a big play runner where he is prone to breaking off a big run after being stuffed a few times.

If I am a team right now I pretty much commit to stuffing the run early because I know if I do I can basically just worry about the passing game for the rest of the day because Trestman will give up on it.

As to the DL, at this point I would have Peppers and Wooten play 50% of their snaps at DE and 3T so that combined one of them is playing the 3T the majority of the time. Have the other DTs play NT and have Shea as well as Washington, Bass and the others play on the other side of Wooten/Peppers at DE.

 

[Monk]

One thing I learned from yesterday - if Cutler plays well in the 2nd half then DO NOT AND I MEAN DO NOT criticize the offense which includes him for a dismal 1st half. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE FINAL SCORE OF THE GAME. YOU ARE IGNORANT IF YOU THINK THAT. SHUT UP. WHY? JUST BECAUSE. OKAY? GOOD. MEL TUCKER IS TO BLAME FOR OUR INABILITY TO CONVERT A 3RD DOWN AND SCORE POINTS ON OFFENSE IN THE FIRST HALF. RON RIVERA WILL FIX THAT.

 

[jc456]

Yes, if a DE rushes the QB and forces the QB to have to move away from him to avoid a sack, I am pretty sure it counts as a QB Hurry and has always counted as a QB hurry since the statistic was first created. A QB hurry is by definition when you pressure the QB without hitting him as if you hit him it is not a QB hurry but a QB hit. So I am not sure your confusion here. You do realize teams were tracking this before PFF came around right?

Kromer is known for building his offensive line inside out ie ensuring the inside is stout so that the QB has a pocket to step up into. I thought that was fairly common knowledge.

I think football people call it a pocket and most passes are thrown from the pocket. It's where the throwing lanes are at. The tackles are to keep engaged and take the DE to the outside to leave the middle open to have the throwing lanes develop.

Really? Wow!

 

[remydat]

I thought you gave the three instances in which a "QB hurry" would take place in lieu of a "QB hit"...

I took this to mean that a QB stepping up in the pocket is the result of a "QB hurry"...I guess I interpreted this wrong.

Those are potential reasons why a QB hurry does not result in a QB hit or sack. A DE puts pressure on a QB but sometimes that QB is able to step up in the pocket, get rid of the ball quickly, or escape the rush and scramble. So again, I did not define a QB hurry. A QB hurry was defined by others as pressure on a QB that does not result in a sack or hit. That has nothing to do with me.

 

[remydat]

No, that wasn't the issue. And I don't know how I could have possibly proposed that Mills is better than Free when Free's name had yet to be mentioned. I thought the issue was that Mills was rated the 68th best OT out of 70. Thought that was interesting, considering he's given up 0 sacks and 3 QB hits. Mills is on pace to play an entire season without allowing a QB sack...yet is the 68th best OT out of 70. Its just interesting how Mills excels at the tangible outcomes of sacks and hits, but is graded poorly with "QB hurries".

Did I say you said Free was better? I said you are free to consider him better if you want if you discount hurries.

The avoidance of a sack or QB hit can be the result of the QB and play call rather than anything the OL did well. We have gone to more 3 step drops and frankly whenever we go to the deeper pass routes we use to employ last year, I typically see Cutler getting pressured.

 

[remydat]

I think football people call it a pocket and most passes are thrown from the pocket. It's where the throwing lanes are at. The tackles are to keep engaged and take the DE to the outside to leave the middle open to have the throwing lanes develop.

Really? Wow!

Yes and yet despite everyone having this same concept of a pocket, Frees has given up only 4 hurries while Mills has given up 21. The top 10 ranked Tackles have all given up 10 or less hurries. The top 58 tackles have all given up 15 or less hurries. The numbers are what they are.

Like I said, if you don't want to put a lot of stock into the QB hurry numbers then you don't have to but what do you want me to do? Pretend that those numbers don't have Mills giving up the 2nd most QB hurries at the tackle position in the entire NFL?

 

[remydat]

remydat, serious question...would one of the improvements the Bears could make be the immediate benching of Mills and the possible benching of Bushrod? If not, why?

If that was one of the improvements then I would have mentioned it in my OP. Clearly I didn't and it only came up because someone else mentioned him.

Realistically, I don't think the Bears have anyone on the roster who can play better than Bushrod and I doubt Scott or Britton would be better than Mills.

 

[botfly10]

Those are potential reasons why a QB hurry does not result in a QB hit or sack. A DE puts pressure on a QB but sometimes that QB is able to step up in the pocket, get rid of the ball quickly, or escape the rush and scramble. So again, I did not define a QB hurry. A QB hurry was defined by others as pressure on a QB that does not result in a sack or hit. That has nothing to do with me.

So it counts as a hurry if the tackle does his job perfectly like you just described?

 

[jc456]

Yes and yet despite everyone having this same concept of a pocket, Frees has given up only 4 hurries while Mills has given up 21. The top 10 ranked Tackles have all given up 10 or less hurries. The top 58 tackles have all given up 15 or less hurries. The numbers are what they are.

Like I said, if you don't want to put a lot of stock into the QB hurry numbers then you don't have to but what do you want me to do? Pretend that those numbers don't have Mills giving up the 2nd most QB hurries at the tackle position in the entire NFL?

But your definition of a hurry is an expected play by a tackle. So I'm confused at how Jay stepping up in the pocket to throw, constitutes a hurry?

 

[remydat]

So it counts as a hurry if the tackle does his job perfectly like you just described?

Again, doesn't every team push DEs to the outside so that a QB can step up? Do you think that magically every time Free pushes a guy past his QB he doesn't get a QB hurry but every time Mills does the same thing, he gets a QB hurry? Once again, the top 20 tackles all have 10 or less. The top 58 all have 15 or less. So Mills is clearly an outlier with his 21.

So no if a T does his job perfectly then he doesn't get a QB hurry. However, I don't think given the stats Mills is doing his job perfectly nor do I think there is some conspiracy to give him hurries that other Tackles don't get. I have seen Cutler have to get rid of the ball or scramble a few times because Mills got beat so I am not surprised he has given up a lot of hurries. I just think Cutler can see the pressure coming from his right side and can adjust.

 

[remydat]

But your definition of a hurry is an expected play by a tackle. So I'm confused at how Jay stepping up in the pocket to throw, constitutes a hurry?

A QB hurry has been defined as giving up pressure without giving up a hit or a sack. That is not my definition. That is the definition teams and people like PFF use.

A separate issue is how one avoids said pressure. You seem to be suggesting that all pockets and all stepping up in the pocket is the same as if you can't see on the field when a QB steps up while still in rhythm vs when he steps up because the T did a shitty job and his rhythm is disrupted by the pressure.

 

[remydat]

Whoa...everyone has the same concept of a pocket? I honestly thought you said the pocket was invented by Kromer, that a QB stepping up in the pocket was something specific to a Kromer offense, because of the emphasis Kromer puts on the interior line.

Anyways, the best OT has given up 2 sacks, while the 68th best OT has given up zero sacks. Amazing. That would be like the best closer in baseball having 2 blown saves early in the year, while the 68th best closer in baseball had converted every save opportunity.

Well if you honestly thought that it probably hints at a reading comprehension problem.

If the 68th best closer in baseball converted every save opportunity but 21 times his outfielders robbed a hitter of a game winning home run then would you say he was better than the best closer who blew two saves despite blowing away the other team all the other times?

If you can't understand that the outcome is dependent on people other than the closer or the tackle then again, must be a comprehension problem.

 

[remydat]

No, I thought that concept was invented by Lovie Smith...much like how the passing pocket was invented by Aaron Kromer. Before Lovie, teams would crash their DEs inside the tackles in passing situations. Lovie Smith was the first guy to have the DEs rush to the outside. The reason for this is because Lovie believed in a strong interior pass rush from the DTs. Its incredibly how many trendsetters the Bears coaching staff has had over the years. Ralph Jones, Clark Shaughnessy, George Allen, Buddy Ryan....Aaron Kromer, Lovie Smith.

YES! THATS THE WHOLE POINT! You can't even describe what a "QB Hurry" is...the 'stat' itself is completely subjective...yet you expect people to think there is some sort of regular standard when it comes to applying this vague concept.

A QB hurry is when a pressure is given up without a sack or hit being recorded. Again, if you have a problem with it then take it up with the teams and stat companies that use it. You are arguing with me as if I created the statistic.

Tell you want, see below for some teams that use it. Feel free to go tell them your concerns.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcsouth/tag/_/name/quarterback-hurries

 

[Hbkrusso]

Seems to be a bit subjective, no? QBs usually don't move toward a DE to avoid a sack, unless they are Rob Johnson or Blaine Gabbert, so I would assume "stepping up in the pocket" would be a pretty standard procedure. I didn't realize every time a QB stepped up in the pocket, he was being forced to throw the ball sooner than he wanted, per your lenghty-yet-repetitive definition of "QB hurry". I guess if you are telling me that every 21 times Cutler steps up in the pocket (i.e. "hurried") he is hit 3 times, that would sound pretty normal. I guess I never thought of the 18 non-hit step up in the pocket plays as hurries.



That must be a revolutionary concept. The NFL's passing pocket used to be like a left paranthesis: (

The tackles hold firm at the ends, while the interior line sags backwards. This new "reverse pocket" model of Kromer's where the tackles drop back and the interior line holds firm is amazing, yet also incredibly logical! I assume most NFL teams will be copying Kromer's model in the near future!

not gonna swear to it but this seemed sarcastic

 

[remydat]

Great analogy. What if Romo is better at moving in the pocket than Cutler, so Romo avoids the dreaded-yet-superfluous "QB Hurry" situation whereas Cutler makes it appear that Mills' man is (literally) always one step away from a sack or a QB hit?

I'm just amazed at how an outcome can be dependent on other people, but only at times and in ways that you want it to be.

I don't want it to be anything because I am not compiling the stat. You keep acting like I personally decided to screw Mills over by giving him more QB hurries than all but 1 tackle. I have no control over the numbers reported.

Again if you have concerns with the stat then take it up with the NFL teams and stat services that track it. All I am telling you is that he has given up a shit ton of QB hurries when compared to his peers. I have no reason to believe that is because of some conspiracy.

 

[jc456]

Well if you honestly thought that it probably hints at a reading comprehension problem.

If the 68th best closer in baseball converted every save opportunity but 21 times his outfielders robbed a hitter of a game winning home run then would you say he was better than the best closer who blew two saves despite blowing away the other team all the other times?

If you can't understand that the outcome is dependent on people other than the closer or the tackle then again, must be a comprehension problem.

WHAT?