AA sues over proposed cross at 9/11 memorial

TSD

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http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/atheist-group-sues-over-proposed-cross-9-11-180949616.html



To clarify it isnt just atheists. Some Jews, and even christians (who say the cross, isnt the "right" kind of cross for their denomination).





Two Jewish plaintiffs said they find the cross "offensive and repugnant to their beliefs." The brother of a first responder who died of lung problems after volunteering at Ground Zero for two weeks is also a plaintiff.



"The WTC cross has become a Christian icon. It has been blessed by so-called holy men and presented as a reminder that their god, who couldn't be bothered to stop the Muslim terrorists or prevent 3,000 people from being killed in his name, cared only enough to bestow upon us some rubble that resembles a cross," American Atheists President David Silverman said in a statement.



"As a survivor of the 9/11 attack and family member of one of the brave responders to the 9/11 attack, Mark Panzarino is appalled that the state has permitted a symbol of Christianity to represent a tragedy that affected all Americans. The Panzarinos unequivocally do not wish for a cross to represent Frank Joseph Panzarino's sacrifice unless it is a Lutheran Cross," he said in the complaint. (A Lutheran cross features a rose-shaped inlay that, in turn, showcases another crucifix; the plaintiffs evidently singled it out to make the point that any such choice of a Christian symbol excludes someone else's belief.)
 

Pez68

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This is what's wrong with the world in a nutshell.
 

TSD

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I frankly could give a shit about the cross, It doesn't "offend" me. What I don't like is government finances are putting it there. If some private citizen wants to pay for it and put it there, I could give three shits, they just better be ready to accept everything from jews to even muslims doing it too.



That and its just adding more religious fire to the damn flame.
 

Bringmepie

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That nut job must be one of those extremists from the Wisconsin Synod.
 

bri

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How come none of these people ***** about Congress having a chapel? That is a government entity. I personally have no problem with the cross, but feel all religions should be represented and that they should be paid for by private donations. If seeing those symbols provides comfort for people how can it be a horrible thing.
 

roshinaya

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Good, keep the memorial free from any religious iconography.
 

supraman

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I hate everyone. Really, who fucking cares, 99% of the populace isn't going to be affected either way so who fucking cares. Rowshambo for it.
 

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Once again the minority being represented and not the majority.
 

supraman

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Once again the minority being represented and not the majority.



IHF this is the one time I actually agree with you on something. Even as an atheist/agnostic/whatever I think it is stupid.
 

BigPete

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Once again the minority being represented and not the majority.

I'm sorry, I thought this was a country where freedom and equality reign supreme. Who gives a **** about the majority voice regarding religion? What is that anyways, "there are more of us so we are more right than you"???



If is isn't good for everyone and will offend some people, then it shouldn't be done. No one is saying we shouldn't have a memorial, but to tie it to one religion is exclusionary and shouldn't be allowed.



Now, if they want to have some religious icon at the site, I suggest they have one for each religion practiced in the US. Otherwise, have none.



You know, I really love this shit that America is still supposedly 70% christian. I have posted material in other threads that directly questions the notion as most 'christians' don't actually attend services or follow their religion. So should they really be considered a member? I think not. So that logic takes your 70% majority and cuts it in half or even more so...now that 70% of the population is more like 25% to 35%. hmmmmmmm....not so much a majority anymore.



Stop shoving your religion in my face with your obscenely large crosses all over the place. When was the last time you saw a giant Star of David on the side of a highway? What about a 50 foot tall Crescent? Seen any massive Buddha statues in America lately? I haven't. It is the christians, evangelical ones in fact, that love to 'spread the word'. The rest of us don't want to hear it!
 

supraman

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I'm sorry, I thought this was a country where freedom and equality reign supreme. Who gives a **** about the majority voice regarding religion? What is that anyways, "there are more of us so we are more right than you"???



If is isn't good for everyone and will offend some people, then it shouldn't be done. No one is saying we shouldn't have a memorial, but to tie it to one religion is exclusionary and shouldn't be allowed.



Now, if they want to have some religious icon at the site, I suggest they have one for each religion practiced in the US. Otherwise, have none.



You know, I really love this shit that America is still supposedly 70% christian. I have posted material in other threads that directly questions the notion as most 'christians' don't actually attend services or follow their religion. So should they really be considered a member? I think not. So that logic takes your 70% majority and cuts it in half or even more so...now that 70% of the population is more like 25% to 35%. hmmmmmmm....not so much a majority anymore.



Stop shoving your religion in my face with your obscenely large crosses all over the place. When was the last time you saw a giant Star of David on the side of a highway? What about a 50 foot tall Crescent? Seen any massive Buddha statues in America lately? I haven't. It is the christians, evangelical ones in fact, that love to 'spread the word'. The rest of us don't want to hear it!



And on the other hand Athesists shove "No religion anywhere" shit down everyone else's throat.
 

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At the core, I can see how the Jews and Atheists could be pissed off at all of this.



Let me explain it this way: It would be like putting up a single statue in Houston or Cape Canaveral, celebrating space exploration and the space race, but the statue is of Yuri Gagarin.



Fact remains: Not all of the Americans who died, or helped with the resue efforts were Christian, and they or their survivors don't want to be mis-represented. So how about a symbol that represents everyone who died, or helped in the rescue efforts...LIKE A FUCKING AMERICAN FLAG.
 

supraman

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At the core, I can see how the Jews and Atheists could be pissed off at all of this.



Let me explain it this way: It would be like putting up a single statue in Houston or Cape Canaveral, celebrating space exploration and the space race, but the statue is of Yuri Gagarin.



Fact remains: Not all of the Americans who died, or helped with the resue efforts were Christian, and they or their survivors don't want to be mis-represented. So how about a symbol that represents everyone who died, or helped in the rescue efforts...LIKE A FUCKING AMERICAN FLAG.





That sir is a good idea. Or what about a smaller version of the statue of the firefighters raising the flag?
 

TSD

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At the core, I can see how the Jews and Atheists could be pissed off at all of this.



Let me explain it this way: It would be like putting up a single statue in Houston or Cape Canaveral, celebrating space exploration and the space race, but the statue is of Yuri Gagarin.



Fact remains: Not all of the Americans who died, or helped with the resue efforts were Christian, and they or their survivors don't want to be mis-represented. So how about a symbol that represents everyone who died, or helped in the rescue efforts...LIKE A FUCKING AMERICAN FLAG.



Fuckin A. Although I am sure some people would be pissed about that, but you cant really argue against a fact. This is the United States of America. Fact. Therefore if you don't want to see the flag, **** you dont live in the US then.



Its not the United States of Jesus, its not the United States of Abraham or Mohammed.





As I mentioned before The cross doesn't offend me, I could give a shit, but I don't like government finances being contributed to ANYTHING that endorses one religion over another. See above this is not the Christian republic of.



A cross in itself being there does not anger me, does not offend me, the government endorsing it does anger me.



And on the other hand Athesists shove "No religion anywhere" shit down everyone else's throat.



I shove "no religion anywhere it shouldnt be" down peoples throats. i.e. Not in government, not in government run institutions, and not provided for by government money.



Build churches, preach, do whatever the **** you want as long as it isn't done through or by government or any such institution.
 

Variable

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And on the other hand Athesists shove "No religion anywhere" shit down everyone else's throat.



No, not really. Even in instances in which they probably have reason to bring up questions, the majority simply don't care enough to.
 

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I don't get it. Many who complain about the "haters" are the same ones who spew anti-religion rants with such vitriol.



This country is founded upon Christian principals. If you don't believe me, go to Washington, D.C. and walk around and look at the buildings.



You don't see those with religious beliefs using blasphemy at those who don't believe yet it is just the opposite when it comes to the anti-religion group.



I am indifferent with the symbol at the WTC site. It seems to me that many who were there, lived it and worked through found it to be an important part of the site. So what if a few don't want it. There were many who thought the whole area was hallowed ground and nothing should be built there. AS with anything everyone has a opinion but it is the majority that rules. I really believe that the majority wants this symbol to be erected. And by the way, this is just a symbol, it is not an actual cross that is being erected.
 

roshinaya

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I doubt these claims that the US was founded on Christian principles. Wasn't most of the founding fathers more deists and was it Jefferson that re-wrote the bible and removed all supernatural stuff? The constitution does not mention God and and makes it pretty clear that religion shall not have a place in the government either locally or federally. It was more inspired by the Enlightenment and the Magna Charta than Christianity.



Christian people might not use blasphemy, but they do let their faith influence politics and lawmaking to a degree that fully deserves the attention of the non-believers. All of a sudden it's OK to put a cross on the site when it was such a horrible thing to build a community center with a mosque a few blocks away from ground zero.
 

TSD

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I don't get it. Many who complain about the "haters" are the same ones who spew anti-religion rants with such vitriol.



This country is founded upon Christian principals. If you don't believe me, go to Washington, D.C. and walk around and look at the buildings.



You don't see those with religious beliefs using blasphemy at those who don't believe yet it is just the opposite when it comes to the anti-religion group.



I am indifferent with the symbol at the WTC site. It seems to me that many who were there, lived it and worked through found it to be an important part of the site. So what if a few don't want it. There were many who thought the whole area was hallowed ground and nothing should be built there. AS with anything everyone has a opinion but it is the majority that rules. I really believe that the majority wants this symbol to be erected. And by the way, this is just a symbol, it is not an actual cross that is being erected.



I said it before and I will say it again. I dont care about the cross being there. I care about how it got there.



To the bolded, define christian principles. I see people say this all the time, yet have never been told, what exactly are christian principles.





I doubt these claims that the US was founded on Christian principles. Wasn't most of the founding fathers more deists and was it Jefferson that re-wrote the bible and removed all supernatural stuff? The constitution does not mention God and and makes it pretty clear that religion shall not have a place in the government either locally or federally. It was more inspired by the Enlightenment and the Magna Charta than Christianity.



Christian people might not use blasphemy, but they do let their faith influence politics and lawmaking to a degree that fully deserves the attention of the non-believers. All of a sudden it's OK to put a cross on the site when it was such a horrible thing to build a community center with a mosque a few blocks away from ground zero.



Yes. Most of the prominent founding fathers were Deists. Jefferson also had a letter arguing against the common law of man coming from christianity. John Adams said the united states was not founded on christianity in the treaty of tripoli.



So people like to throw this christian "principles" thing in there as if its somehow different from "christianity". So I would like someone to define that for me, so I can investigate whether christian "principles" are in fact exclusive to christians.





The Treaty of Tipoli



As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,4 - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.



Shit, even Billy Graham agrees:



David Frost: Say is this still a Christian Country?

Billy Graham: No! We're not a Christian Country. We've never been a Christian Country. We're a secular Country, by our constitution. In which Christians live and which many Christians have a voice. But we're not a Christian Country.
 

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