Acquring Young Stud Pitchers

DJMoore_is_fat

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The NLCS IS NOT OVER (we win game 3 and I like our chances) and it's important not to over-react knowing how young our hitters are -- but I still think it would be in our best interest to pursue young stud pitchers. History has proven that signing pitchers over the age of 30 to huge mega-deals rarely works out.

Who would be available -- either guys that have been in the majors a short period of time (a few years) or guys who will be called up in 2016? What talent could we part with to acquire said pitcher?

I realize teams rarely give up young studs unless they get a Kings Ransom in return. But maybe if we unload some of the guys in our farm system and throw in a proven major league hitter -- it might make sense.

It just seems our rotation isn't quite loaded enough. I like Arrieta, Lester, and Hendricks for next year and I like the versatility in our bullpen (Wood, Grimm, Rondon, etc) but it seems like we need a bit more firepower.
 

TC in Mississippi

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I think they're going to trade for a pitcher. I know that's a controversial thought but I think they will. Names bandied about at the deadline included Tyson Ross, Carlos Carrasco and Julio Teheran. I think they'll look at those guys. Tampa is deep in young pitching I think they'll look there too. Best guess is that they trade for one, sign another and that Hammel goes in a trade somewhere unless it has to be Hendricks.
 

Parade_Rain

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My favorite teams
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  1. Chicago Bulls
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Illinois Fighting Illini
So can we further add to the conjecture by discussing possible players traded away? :D
 

DJMoore_is_fat

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I think they're going to trade for a pitcher. I know that's a controversial thought but I think they will. Names bandied about at the deadline included Tyson Ross, Carlos Carrasco and Julio Teheran. I think they'll look at those guys. Tampa is deep in young pitching I think they'll look there too. Best guess is that they trade for one, sign another and that Hammel goes in a trade somewhere unless it has to be Hendricks.

Ross is a stud. I know we went after him hard at the dead line. Wish we had him now!

How much control would he be under and what do you think we'd have to give up to get him?
 

TC in Mississippi

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Ross is a stud. I know we went after him hard at the dead line. Wish we had him now!

How much control would he be under and what do you think we'd have to give up to get him?

He has two more years of control. The rumors were they were demanding Baez who I still doubt goes anywhere so who knows? You have to break some eggs to make an omelet so I still think one of these young players could go in trade and it might not be a popular move.
 

DJMoore_is_fat

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He has two more years of control. The rumors were they were demanding Baez who I still doubt goes anywhere so who knows? You have to break some eggs to make an omelet so I still think one of these young players could go in trade and it might not be a popular move.

Wonder if Castro and Mckinnley would get it done. Would hate to give up Baez but like you said, have to give talent to get talent. The Baez/Russell combo could be monsterous though. Really tough call.
 

Boobaby1

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Wonder if Castro and Mckinnley would get it done. Would hate to give up Baez but like you said, have to give talent to get talent. The Baez/Russell combo could be monsterous though. Really tough call.

I think a few moths ago, you would say to trade Castro and not Baez. I think right now, the roles have been reversed. Castro has the contract, and the Padres may want the Cubs to eat part of it.

Castro seems to be a good partner to Russell up the middle. They may move Bryant to the outfield and put Baez at 3rd base along with LaStella who can take over if anyone is struggling.

This team seems to be coming together all the way around, and one might be hesitant to break it up. Soler is a possibility too and move Bryant to the outfield.

A different approach might be to deal Hendricks, along with players like McKinney and an "A" baller. That way, they still get a starter, a future hitter, and a lottery ticket.
 

TC in Mississippi

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I think a few moths ago, you would say to trade Castro and not Baez. I think right now, the roles have been reversed. Castro has the contract, and the Padres may want the Cubs to eat part of it.

Castro seems to be a good partner to Russell up the middle. They may move Bryant to the outfield and put Baez at 3rd base along with LaStella who can take over if anyone is struggling.

This team seems to be coming together all the way around, and one might be hesitant to break it up. Soler is a possibility too and move Bryant to the outfield.

A different approach might be to deal Hendricks, along with players like McKinney and an "A" baller. That way, they still get a starter, a future hitter, and a lottery ticket.

I like having all the options the team has now so I'm reluctant to even say who should go. Some might say Castro because his value has risen to a point where they likely don't have to eat any of the contract. The next 4 years are at 8, 10, 11 & 12 million respectively. If he can get to be a consistent 2B guy he's worth every penny of that. Still teams might need more time and I think the Cubs will be happy to wait. As for Baez and Soler, shit I want them both I'm just not sure with the pitching needs and/or the CF/leadoff need if one might have to go. I hope not.
 

FrankieLyrical

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The question is: what are we willing to part with. I don't want to trade Castro OR Baez, but that's just me being greedy. One of them will surely have to be in a trade for a pitcher.
 

brett05

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The question is: what are we willing to part with. I don't want to trade Castro OR Baez, but that's just me being greedy. One of them will surely have to be in a trade for a pitcher.
Initially there was talk of Starlin for Noah. I think it's safe to assume that the value of Noah has increased greatly since that talk last year. That should give a good idea on what cost should be on a young stud pitcher.
 

FrankieLyrical

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Initially there was talk of Starlin for Noah. I think it's safe to assume that the value of Noah has increased greatly since that talk last year. That should give a good idea on what cost should be on a young stud pitcher.

I have a good idea, it just sucks that we have to trade one of the kiddos to get it done. We NEED pitching though, so we'll likely see Baez and/or Castro traded.
 

DJMoore_is_fat

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The question is: what are we willing to part with. I don't want to trade Castro OR Baez, but that's just me being greedy. One of them will surely have to be in a trade for a pitcher.

Yep one will have to go. Its sucks depleting our depth when Russell has somewhat of an injury history. But we need another horse in the rotation. Would love to plug in Tyson Ross.
 

FrankieLyrical

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Yep one will have to go. Its sucks depleting our depth when Russell has somewhat of an injury history. But we need another horse in the rotation. Would love to plug in Tyson Ross.

Yeah, I want to trade for Ross this offseason as well as sign Price. That's whats needed come playoff time. 3-4 horses. Not Hendricks and fucking Hammel
 

Rise

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We do need two more legit starting pitchers but I don't want to give up any of the young infielders. If I had to choose one its Castro I guess. Why not just sign free agents? They have the money use it, take advantage of all these young guys in cheap deals for the next few years.
 

TC in Mississippi

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We do need two more legit starting pitchers but I don't want to give up any of the young infielders. If I had to choose one its Castro I guess. Why not just sign free agents? They have the money use it, take advantage of all these young guys in cheap deals for the next few years.

I think they should sign a FA. Not a Price or a Greinke who will get crazy contracts but maybe a Kazmir or Leake. Someone like that. Then trade for a cost controlled guy. The problem with teh expensive free agents is the back end of the their deals are going to hurt. We've got one in Lester, will probably have another in Arrieta and I don't want to see them not be able to get a guy they need because they're burdened by too much payroll and I'm a guy a that actually thinks the payroll with probably tap out at $180-$200 million. A lot of people think it will cap a lot lower than that in the $150 range. Even with my higher numbers you can't constantly eat bad money, it's what hurt the team in the Hendry years.
 

Rise

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I think they should sign a FA. Not a Price or a Greinke who will get crazy contracts but maybe a Kazmir or Leake. Someone like that. Then trade for a cost controlled guy. The problem with teh expensive free agents is the back end of the their deals are going to hurt. We've got one in Lester, will probably have another in Arrieta and I don't want to see them not be able to get a guy they need because they're burdened by too much payroll and I'm a guy a that actually thinks the payroll with probably tap out at $180-$200 million. A lot of people think it will cap a lot lower than that in the $150 range. Even with my higher numbers you can't constantly eat bad money, it's what hurt the team in the Hendry years.

I get that I want long term success and I don't want to be saddled with bad contracts on old players and then we have to watch good young hitters leave in their prime. But I also just want to win a World Series so damn bad just one! Glad I'm not making these decision I would totally Hendry us cause I am sick of waiting. All in stack the deck! Haha.
 

DJMoore_is_fat

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I think they should sign a FA. Not a Price or a Greinke who will get crazy contracts but maybe a Kazmir or Leake. Someone like that. Then trade for a cost controlled guy. The problem with teh expensive free agents is the back end of the their deals are going to hurt. We've got one in Lester, will probably have another in Arrieta and I don't want to see them not be able to get a guy they need because they're burdened by too much payroll and I'm a guy a that actually thinks the payroll with probably tap out at $180-$200 million. A lot of people think it will cap a lot lower than that in the $150 range. Even with my higher numbers you can't constantly eat bad money, it's what hurt the team in the Hendry years.

Yeps it's not about throwing endless money at FA's and automatically winning WS. Look at the teams with the highest payrolls:

1) Dodgers
2) Yankees
3) Red Sox
4) Tigers
5) Giants
6) Nationals
7) Angels
8) Rangers
9) Phillies

Not one of those teams made it to the NLCS and 7 didn't even make the playoffs. The Red Sox and Phillies are two of the worst teams in baseball.

Those teams are saddled with atrocious contracts. We don't want to end up like them. You got one guy in Lester, okay fine. But you throw in Price? We could find ourselves on that list if we're not careful.
 

Raskolnikov

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Theo is too busy drafting the ultimate lineup of thumpers to worry about young stud pitchers.

They should figure out how to sign a premiere veteran (Grienke, Zimmerman, Price) while preparing trade pieces to add Shark at the deadline.

Arrieta, Greinke, Lester, Shark, Hammels ought to get it done.
 

beckdawg

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I'll quote myself from another thread...

I have mentioned this a number of times but the cubs starter fWAR was the highest in the majors. Their starter ERA was 3rd in the majors behind the Cardinals who had a statistically absurd year and the Dodgers who had 2 of the 3 Cy Young candidates. The cubs starters were second to the indians in k/9. They were 3rd behind the mets and nationals in bb/9. They were 1st in FIP. Just to be clear here.... we're talking about a team who basically was piecing together a #5 starter for most of the year and they still put those numbers up

Perception isn't always reality. If the media tells fans their teams pitching is bad enough times it sticks. That's not to say they can't improve because there are very few cases where you can't improve. But the talk of needing at least 2 starters to me is ignorant. I don't mean ignorant as an insult. I mean it as the actual definition of the word(lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about something in particular.). It's easy to forget this team won 97 games because they finished 3rd in their devision. Teams that win 97 games usually have pretty damn good pitching.

Simply put, you honestly aren't going to do much better than the staff they had this year realistically speaking. Even as absurd as the cardinals pitching was this year the cubs were better in a number of areas which is why they had more fWAR. The one area they realistically can improve on is the #5 starter because as mentioned it was a bit of a mess most of the year. Now setting your sights on a #5 is probably not worth your time. I think ideally you want to push Hammel to the #5.

Another thing I mentioned in that other topic is Pierce Johnson probably starts in AAA and IIRC is pitching in the AFL because he missed some time this season. What that likely means is he doesn't necessarily need a full year at AAA if all goes according to plan. It's easy to forget because he's been over shadowed by guys like Bryant and Russell but Johnson has #3 stuff. In 98 IP in AA this year he had a 2.08 ERA(3.47 FIP). His k/9 and bb/9 weren't as good as you'd like but he was coming back from an injury so that's not too surprising. If you were to slot him in ahead or behind Hendricks around midseason that is a pretty solid staff. It's not "holy shit" amazing but look at those rankings i posted at the top and imagine someone with some talent throwing say 20 starts instead of Wada/Richard/Harren/Roach.

I'm sure they will consider dealing for pitching but I don't think it is as obvious as some make it out to be. Seems to me it's more a case of it being the right price for the right player. The obvious talk will be about trading Baez and/or Castro. But I had a thought that maybe the front office has too. Typically when NL teams have to play AL teams with a DH they lose because they don't have a full time hitter that's really good enough. But the cubs do... and they are all cheap. Sure it's a bit clunky having someone as talented as Baez or Castro or whomever riding the bench but we've seen Maddon make it work. And it's also very nice protection against injury. For example, what if Russell had pulled his hammy in July instead of in the playoffs? It's nice to have someone like Baez to just slot in with no worry and you're not having to give up a ton of young talent at the deadline to replace a hurt player.

Additionally, I posted something the other day talking about the likely bump in revenue the cubs will enjoy thanks to this playoff run. In that I commented that since 2006 there hasn't been a single offseason where more than 2 pitchers got monster deals. Last offseason was sort of a typical case. You had Scherzer getting $30 mil/season. Lester got $25.8 mil. Shields got $18.75 mil/season. That seems to be a some what typical spread for the 1-3 guys. Top guy makes <x>. #2 guy makes <x-$5 mil>. #3 guy makes <x-$10 mil> or there about. If that's the case, you're going to have Grienke and Price as the two top dogs. But behind those guys you have Jordan Zimmermann, Jeff Samardzija, Bud Norris, Mike Leake, Justin Masterson, Kyle Lohse, Tim Lincecum, Cliff Lee($27.5 mil team option), Mat Latos, John Lackey, Ian Kennedy, Kyle Kendrick, Scott Kazmir, Hisashi Iwakuma, J.A. Happ, Yovani Gallardo, Doug Fister, Marco Estrada, Johnny Cueto, Wei-Yin Chen, Brett Anderson, and Chad Billingsley. That is an absurd amount of depth.

Even if Cueto, Shark, Leak and Zimmerman all are close to $20 mil which history suggests is unlikely, you still have a crap load of interesting mid rotation starters. The example I used in the other topic was say the cubs sign John Lackey to a 2 year $30 mil deal. That then buys them time with some of their younger guys like Underwood and Johnson. And in this FA market is Lackey even going to get $15 mil/season? Even if he does, you're talking about the division rival cardinals game 1 starter at that price.
 

TC in Mississippi

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I get what you're saying. My point is that they don't have the type of playoff rotation you would like to have a solid shot a World Series every time you make the playoffs. They could not improve the pitching at all and be back in this position again next year and every time you're in the playoffs you have a chance. I'd just like to see them have a better chance.
 

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